Gender confusion

[Sliceitup]

I haven’t heard loud rejections from anyone

Plain people tend not to be loud about anything but they are certain not having a discussion about how best to help children transition. It's not even permitted as a discussion. I would call that a pretty clear rejection.

Civil disagreement tends to speak louder then bold harsh words in terms of effective conversion of thought. Certainly there is time for strong words and several on here would have been expelled from any number of conservative churches for supporting and arguing for lgbtq issues. I think though it is wiser to not be expelled as well for our own tongue.

This is true, but when you're dealing with a honest and up front people. When you're dealing with a subversive evil people, their agenda, and the entirety of their influence, and participation has to be explicitly rejected. Heavy-handedness is better than erring on the side of compassion.

I've only seen Christian institutions fall to sin because of a failure to be hostile to evil influences, I have not seen the inverse in my lifetime.

I understand you feel strongly about these issues, and that’s ok. I also see now that you’re against the outside influences, and don’t advocate hostility towards those in the church who are struggling. But that was not easy to detect at first, and if I was a parent in a situation with an LGBTQ child, I would not check first with you to make sure I knew exactly who your hostility is aimed at. I would assume that anything short of open dismissal for my child would not meet your approval.

Maybe that doesn’t matter to you that your words are perceived in that way. But you must know that it is words like yours that make many parent not even feel safe approaching their church family when situations like this arise.

[Bootstrap]

I think both sides of the political spectrum are worldly, though. And I think one of the biggest threats to the church is allying ourselves with secular political factions, using their language and worldview instead of what the Bible teaches.

It's about the Kingdom versus the World. It's not about the political right versus the political left. And the Kingdom is built on love for God and love for neighbor.

I'm not on a side of the political spectrum, nor am I allying myself with a secular faction. My main problem is people who claim to be Christians, but open support and advocate for destruction of children's bodies.

OK, let me try kicking off a thread on the first passage you mentioned.

[Bootstrap]

All these statistics show is that hate crimes still account for a very small percentage of violent crime in the US.

I think these statistics are one useful measure of who faces violent hatred in this country because of their religion, race, or lifestyle choices.

One more worth mentioning: 1,930 violent hate crimes against blacks, compared to 666 against whites, even though blacks are only about 13.6% of the American population. And 81 against Christians.

Some day, Christians may become one of the most persecuted groups in America. But hatred thrives when we tell people to close their hearts, to not have any compassion at all for groups that face things like violent hate crimes. We should be careful not to feed that hatred.

[nett]

All these statistics show is that hate crimes still account for a very small percentage of violent crime in the US.

I think these statistics are one useful measure of who faces violent hatred in this country because of their religion, race, or lifestyle choices.

One more worth mentioning: 1,930 violent hate crimes against blacks, compared to 666 against whites, even though blacks are only about 13.6% of the American population. And 81 against Christians.

Some day, Christians may become one of the most persecuted groups in America. But hatred thrives when we tell people to close their hearts, to not have any compassion at all for groups that face things like violent hate crimes. We should be careful not to feed that hatred.

I don't think they are useful at all, because determining if something is a hate crime vs a regular crime is entirely subjective.

[nett]

I haven’t heard loud rejections from anyone

Plain people tend not to be loud about anything but they are certain not having a discussion about how best to help children transition. It's not even permitted as a discussion. I would call that a pretty clear rejection.

Civil disagreement tends to speak louder then bold harsh words in terms of effective conversion of thought. Certainly there is time for strong words and several on here would have been expelled from any number of conservative churches for supporting and arguing for lgbtq issues. I think though it is wiser to not be expelled as well for our own tongue.

This is true, but when you're dealing with a honest and up front people. When you're dealing with a subversive evil people, their agenda, and the entirety of their influence, and participation has to be explicitly rejected. Heavy-handedness is better than erring on the side of compassion.

I've only seen Christian institutions fall to sin because of a failure to be hostile to evil influences, I have not seen the inverse in my lifetime.

I understand you feel strongly about these issues, and that’s ok. I also see now that you’re against the outside influences, and don’t advocate hostility towards those in the church who are struggling. But that was not easy to detect at first, and if I was a parent in a situation with an LGBTQ child, I would not check first with you to make sure I knew exactly who your hostility is aimed at. I would assume that anything short of open dismissal for my child would not meet your approval.

Maybe that doesn’t matter to you that your words are perceived in that way. But you must know that it is words like yours that make many parent not even feel safe approaching their church family when situations like this arise.

This is the internet not a church. There is no way to show care, compassion or sympathy over the internet. This is an exchange of ideas via words, not emotion.

I don't know what you mean by dismissal, but there are too many possibilities for me to respond with what I would advocate for. If a family were asking the church to accept their child's homosexual behavior, I would expect the parents to excommunicated. I don't believe that LGBT issues should be made public under any circumstances, and attempts to do so merit excommunication as well.

There are plenty of men who have had homosexual urges in their youth, who went to have fruitful marriages with children. From a liberal perspective, they might not have been able to experience the absolutely peaks of sexual gratification that they could have by living a promiscuous life of sodomy, but is that our objective as Christians?

Likewise there are christians who struggle with gender identity, but choose to believe the truth, and act upon it, and many of them also have functional fruitful marriages.

What is God's desire? For people to experience the absolute heights of sexual gratification possible, or to live according to his created order?

[Grace]

But honestly, this current nationwide obsession that conservatives and conservative Christians have with persecuting LGBT kids and their families is frankly pretty unseemly, bigoted, and un-American. Whatever happened to letting people make their own choices and letting parents and their doctors decide what is best for their kids? Rather than wielding the extraordinarily coercive power of the state to punish parents and children for deciding what is best for themselves? It is frankly Medieval.

If it is nationwide obsession that conservatives and conservative Christians have with the LGBT kids, it is because the issue is being foisted on society as a whole, from the radical gay rights movement, the media and all the way up to the president.

[Bootstrap]

This is the internet not a church. There is no way to show care, compassion or sympathy over the internet. This is an exchange of ideas via words, not emotion.

I disagree. I think posts on MN often contain a lot more emotion than logical reasoning. I think people have strong feelings in response to the emotional content of posts here. Real people are reading what we write.

What is God's desire? For people to experience the absolute heights of sexual gratification possible, or to live according to his created order?

I agree that God desires obedience. I think it's important that we acknowledge how hard that is for many people. Single people with strong sexual desires. Married people in marriages where they are not having sex at all. Or simply in marriages where they can't figure out how to live well together. People who have sexual desires for their own sex, but not for their spouses.

I think it's important to have compassion for those people. Love is patient, love is kind, it does not demand its own way. We can't always fix it. Life is hard. Discipleship is hard. We rarely know the full story on anyone else. We're often in denial about our own story.

And it's important to have compassion for those who are in the world. Like Jesus. And like Paul.

Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation. We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry, but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love; by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.

Sometimes people will say we aren't following Jesus if we do that. Sometimes they will say:

Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!

After all, they said that to Jesus.

[Bootstrap]

If it is nationwide obsession that conservatives and conservative Christians have with the LGBT kids, it is because the issue is being foisted on society as a whole, from the radical gay rights movement, the media and all the way up to the president.

Society around us used to at least pay lip service to biblical sexual ethics. Now society around us has pretty much thrown that overboard. It's not just the political left, though. The political right chose a president that they never would have chosen 10 or 15 years ago, a man who openly bragged about his sexual immorality on The Howard Stern Show, who was featured in Playboy, a poster child of sexual immorality, who said he could teach men how to seduce married women just like he does. If you look at the lives of many celebrated political pundits ...

And real, biblical Christianity is a mystery to most people in the world. The loudest Christianity is political Christianity, that's what they see and know.

This is a lot like the early church. Hellenistic society was mystified by the early Christians too. They were able to be salt and light in their time. May we be salt and light in ours.

[Grace]

Society around us used to at least pay lip service to biblical sexual ethics. Now society around us has pretty much thrown that overboard. It's not just the political left, though. The political right chose a president that they never would have chosen 10 or 15 years ago, a man who openly bragged about his sexual immorality on The Howard Stern Show, who was featured in Playboy, a poster child of sexual immorality, who said he could teach men how to seduce married women just like he does. If you look at the lives of many celebrated political pundits ...

And....all roads lead back to Trump. As if he the only president who engaged in illicit affairs and dalliances.

JFK took the virginity of an 18 year old intern, in Jackie's bed, of all places. He had her transported to various places when he was traveling, in order to have his way with her. He forced her to take drugs, and asked her to do unspeakable acts on his chief of staff and brothers.

It is all in this book.


BTW, I do NOT support Trump and his actions in any way, But to always point at his indiscretions and overlook others such as JFK, Clinton, Biden, etc. is disingenuous.

We live in a confused world and is it any wonder children are confused about their genders.

[Bootstrap]

Society around us used to at least pay lip service to biblical sexual ethics. Now society around us has pretty much thrown that overboard. It's not just the political left, though. The political right chose a president that they never would have chosen 10 or 15 years ago, a man who openly bragged about his sexual immorality on The Howard Stern Show, who was featured in Playboy, a poster child of sexual immorality, who said he could teach men how to seduce married women just like he does. If you look at the lives of many celebrated political pundits ...

And....all roads lead back to Trump. As if he the only president who engaged in illicit affairs and dalliances.

If I disappear for weeks at a time, Trump is still a bigger focus than Jesus or the Bible on this forum. The culture war between left and right is still much more prominent than any discussion of the Kingdom versus the world. Scripture is not discussed much. There's little wrestling with what it means for us to be Christlike.

Ah, but whenever I mention Trump, I can count on people to jump in like that's my personal obsession. Because, of course, all y'all are aloof from politics, but very sensitive to any mention of Trump? But the whole MAGA theme dominates MN nonetheless? The political right made a moral bargain when they chose Trump. So have many churches.

I can't think of any Kingdom of God reason that what I wrote above is off. If we want to work from a Christian worldview, I think it's important to be able to say the kind of thing I say above. Trump's immorality is not something that needs to be protected by Christians.