Gender confusion

[Bootstrap]

(i think) what you describe is how THE POLITICAL ENTITY has a not-human life of its own, no soul, no shame,
which harms those it noisily claims to represent. For me it’s deeply important to separate the human from the not-human entity.

Organized political blocs+cults are not of Jesus Christ. They are bad actors.

I agree with both of these statements.

But I also think that the most visible face of Christianity to most non-Christians comes from organized political blocs+cults.

And that some people on MN are reluctant to criticize that. .. ..

!!! SNIP !!!

Correction. i probably misunderstood you.
Your reference is to “Christian organized blocs?” .. i know nothing about them.
If you have a problem with them, do you go to them with questions/criticisms? i find them easy to ignore.
i do not lose sleep over what other Christians do.

I don't mean real Christians who use the Bible as a guide for their lives, are committed disciples, use Jesus as their guide, etc. They don't scare me.

But political blocs and political personality cults are often a whole lot louder than real Christians. Do we think in biblical terms like the Kingdom versus the world, or do we think in political terms like right versus left, as though Christians need to be loyal to a political bloc? If we discard the biblical worldview and replace it with modern American political terms, we've lost the core of what the Bible teaches.

When looking at sinners in the world, do we follow the example of Jesus, like the Samaritan woman or the woman caught in adultery, or do we use the kind of language that some political blocs use to dehumanize others? If our speech looks more like loud and divisive political figures, using the same phrases they use, that's not following the example of Jesus. Surely we all know that these political blocs exist, and that they want our loyalty.

American Christianity is suffering more under compromise with the world than under persecution. On both ends of the political spectrum. Maybe someday we will have the opportunity to suffer as martyrs. If we do, I hope we sound more like the martyrs we honor in the Bible and in historical accounts, and less like people crying victim about persecution that we are not actually suffering.

[RZehr]

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with. They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

Baloney. I don’t believe it. That’s the 20 years ago line they were selling. It’s not their current message at all.

Edit: you say a “lot”. Maybe so. But if so, the few are the ones driving and controlling the national victim narrative and social conversation then.

I wonder how many gay people you know, and how well you know them. Most gay people I know fit the description I gave above. And they see the kind of narratives I'm objecting to quite frequently, dehumanizing fear and hate narratives.

Put yourself in their shoes. Remember that they have faced much more persecution in this country over the years than Christians have. As far as I can tell, most aren't looking for payback, but I suspect they might respond differently to Jesus than they would to political Christianity in this country.

Oh, off the top of my head, I could list 4 that I would be on a first name basis with, three of whom were conservative Mennonites, and one of whom I work with, and one who is my own brother.

Persecution? We are really comparing homosexual acceptance with Christian persecution now? Thieves have also been “persecuted” in this country, and now California says we should quit prosecuting thieves. Should we stop “dehumanizing” thieves? I don’t think we are actually dehumanizing anyone. Point is, these are actually both behaviors - they shouldn’t be identities. I don’t get divorced people, or fornicators, or thieves for that matter, insisting that I accept their behavior as something intrinsically tied to their personhood. It’s just a whining and exaggerating tactic designed to shut down criticism.
I don’t particularly feel it is good or right that evil behavior is ignored, much less comparing it with righteousness being persecuted.

[temporal1]

Just 2 years ago, this thread, GENDER NEUTRAL DOLLS: http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2736

Today, “that’s ^^ nothing!”

2022 / Worse than could have been imagined just 2 years ago:

”American Girl Doll Company Promotes Gender Transition, Puberty Blockers to Girls as Young as 3
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2022/de ... young-as-3

.. But screenshots shared by the DailyMail and parents on Facebook reveal that there is more to this guide than advertised.

The book normalizes being transgender, promotes the use of puberty blockers, and encourages free gender expression.

"If you haven't gone through puberty yet, the doctor might offer medicine to delay your body's changes, giving you more time to think about your gender identity," reads a snippet.

"Being transgender is not an illness or something to be ashamed of... At first, you and the doctor might talk about wearing the clothes and using pronouns (he, she, they) that make you feel most like the true you," reads another passage in the book.

"Parts of your body might make you feel uncomfortable, and you might want to change the way you look. That's totally Ok," it continues.

The guide is marketed to girls between the ages of 3 and 12 and it also provides a list of organizations the children can turn to if they don't have an adult they "trust".

Parents are outraged the American Girl brand is promoting this message to young girls.

"My mind does not want to comprehend this evil agenda towards our children. Why do adults think it's OK to promote this awful act toward innocent children. It does not make sense to me. It grieves my heart," wrote one parent on Facebook.

"These books are not directed or sold to older teenagers or adults they are directed and sold for children...this messaging is the 'NEW Pornography' to ambush our children and grandchildren," wrote one grandmother on Facebook.

"The book mixes truth about embracing natural beauty with lies about denigrating the body. This is a toxic mixture that will only confuse them," wrote Annie Young, a mom of two, for the Christian Post.

Highly recognized conservative commentators are speaking out as well. .. ..



.. Former detransitioners are also criticizing the book.

Cat Cattinson, a detransitioner featured in The Detransition Diaries, told Fox News the message behind American Girl's book, "that a girl can be born into the wrong body and need drugs or surgery to be herself contradicts the message of the body acceptance movement."

Luka Hein, another detransitioner, told the outlet the book is predatory.

"Gender ideology has become increasingly predatory towards young girls' moments of discomfort during puberty, and books like that are only adding to the predatory nature of that," Luka added.

Earlier this year, American Girl's parent company, Mattel, released a transgender Barbie doll.

The American Girl company sells about 30 million dolls a year.

If you would like to contact American Girl, call 800-845-0005 or click here.

It appears, we-all have gotten something very wrong in response to these ORGANIZED POLITICAL BLOCS,
tolerance to acceptance to promotion are not bearing good fruit.

Back to the old drawing board:


- - - - - - -

Because the New Testament teaches that homosexuality is against God’s righteous decree, and those that do such things deserve to die, and also those who encourage and promote such things.

The Bible says we cannot promote homosexuality.

I don’t believe there is any other basis for right and wrong and for truth than the Bible.

The U.S. and the west are, and have been, in the “business” of PROMOTING ALL CARNAL SIN, featuring homosexuality, and now, trans-ing children. Now the SHOCKING business of both government and corporations.

This is FAR-FAR away from God’s view, FAR-FAR away from “loving the sinner, hating the sin.”

As Josh has been trying to clarify -IN PLAIN ENGLISH- for some time.

[temporal1]

I don't mean real Christians who use the Bible as a guide for their lives, are committed disciples, use Jesus as their guide, etc.
They don't scare me.

But political blocs and political personality cults are often a whole lot louder than real Christians. Do we think in biblical terms like the Kingdom versus the world, or do we think in political terms like right versus left, as though Christians need to be loyal to a political bloc? If we discard the biblical worldview and replace it with modern American political terms, we've lost the core of what the Bible teaches.

When looking at sinners in the world, do we follow the example of Jesus, like the Samaritan woman or the woman caught in adultery, or do we use the kind of language that some political blocs use to dehumanize others? If our speech looks more like loud and divisive political figures, using the same phrases they use, that's not following the example of Jesus. Surely we all know that these political blocs exist, and that they want our loyalty.

American Christianity is suffering more under compromise with the world than under persecution. On both ends of the political spectrum. Maybe someday we will have the opportunity to suffer as martyrs. If we do, I hope we sound more like the martyrs we honor in the Bible and in historical accounts, and less like people crying victim about persecution that we are not actually suffering.

At best, you’re “preaching to the choir” here, i’m not sure why. It’s off-putting.

If you pay attention, this forum has some of the best and well-studied representatives of Christianity that might be found anywhere, present for informal, everyday discussion. Drink it in where it can be found and learn!

[nett]

Baloney. I don’t believe it. That’s the 20 years ago line they were selling. It’s not their current message at all.

Edit: you say a “lot”. Maybe so. But if so, the few are the ones driving and controlling the national victim narrative and social conversation then.

I wonder how many gay people you know, and how well you know them. Most gay people I know fit the description I gave above. And they see the kind of narratives I'm objecting to quite frequently, dehumanizing fear and hate narratives.

Put yourself in their shoes. Remember that they have faced much more persecution in this country over the years than Christians have. As far as I can tell, most aren't looking for payback, but I suspect they might respond differently to Jesus than they would to political Christianity in this country.

Oh, off the top of my head, I could list 4 that I would be on a first name basis with, three of whom were conservative Mennonites, and one of whom I work with, and one who is my own brother.

Of these you know, do you find bootstrap's description of them just wanting to left alone to live their lives to be accurate?

Persecution? We are really comparing homosexual acceptance with Christian persecution now? Thieves have also been “persecuted” in this country, and now California says we should quit prosecuting thieves. Should we stop “dehumanizing” thieves? I don’t think we are actually dehumanizing anyone. Point is, these are actually both behaviors - they shouldn’t be identities. I don’t get divorced people, or fornicators, or thieves for that matter, insisting that I accept their behavior as something intrinsically tied to their personhood. It’s just a whining and exaggerating tactic designed to shut down criticism.
I don’t particularly feel it is good or right that evil behavior is ignored, much less comparing it with righteousness being persecuted.

Great points. It's easy to get caught up in emotional arguments, but evil behavior must not be condoned or accepted as an identity.

[RZehr]

Of these you know, do you find bootstrap's description of them just wanting to left alone to live their lives to be accurate?

Yes, pretty much I suppose. I don’t know that they are making political donations, or protesting, etc. I assume they all just want to be treated civilly and kindly.

But it is sort of besides the point, that a lot, a majority, simply want to be left alone. It is hand waving, and a distraction of what is still, in fact, happening. This doesn’t change the reality that this issue is being propelled forcefully onto society and upending the social fabric of the nation.
For example, the vast majority of Muslims had nothing to do with 9/11, the vast majority of Japanese had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. Nonetheless, the power and agency and ability of a few, were hugely impactful.

[Josh]

Most of us would just like to be left alone and not have the state force on us its definition of who is “married” and force us to, for example, provide creative writing services to homosexual weddings.

That's a valid concern. I think the Supreme Court is trying to be helpful there.

I appreciate the current Court but at the same time feel distressed that the only reason it is making 6-3 (or 5-4) decisions in favour of religious liberty is because it has 3 candidates appointed by Trump. If Clinton had won, it wound be making 6-3 or 7-2 decisions against religious freedom, as I believe Clinton would have appointed justices like Obama and Biden have.

Likewise, I feel a “moderate” Republican would have appointed justices who would not be aggressively siding with religious liberty, such as Bush’s picks like Souter.

I don’t think it’s good if preservation of religious liberty requires (a) electing a President like Trump and then (b) requires appealing numerous cases to the Court.

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with. They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

And I’m not particularly concerned with those folks (indeed, I’m friends with quite a few of them). My concern extends to, for example, those who want to change how Christian schools are run (such as attempts to destroy our schools in Canada).

My opinions on lgbt matters are well known but surprisingly my lgbt friends don’t even seem to be bothered by it. I don’t exactly force my opinions on them, tho, but we do discuss social issues if they want to.

[temporal1]

i have no doubt members here have no trouble recognizing the sinner versus the sin, and wisely live that out, in Jesus’ name.
in the world, i’ve known of NO ONE who has harmed carnal sinners. personal experience living in different states, different eras, etc. homosexuals i’ve met, worked with, befriended, have great lives. they have some built-in advantages.

they have advantages significant-enough to be attractive to any who might not know about the ravages of sin.
if you are very motivated about money, this life would “add up.”

the west is ‘way beyond tolerance. as Josh points out, it’s ‘way into promotion of carnal sin.
time to rethink?? fair question.

it’s a favorite, and powerful lie to continue to get mileage out of claims of victimhood. it works!
remove the victimhood card. overplayed.

i believe all are saying, in different words, THE PROBLEM is not how Christians respond to our neighbors,
but, separating them from the organized political bloc, which has grown exponentially to have obtained power, wealth that affects ALL, domestically and internationally - this was no accident, but the stated goal of obama, as POTUS, in The U.S. White House,
it has not stopped, nor intends to stop. It pre-dated him. He formalized it in The White House bully pulpit.

THE ENTITY claims ALL. Entities have no souls, no shame. Lying is not a problem. They exist to obtain power+wealth.
Organized political entities are not of interest to Jesus.

It’s basic. Evil exists to divide, confuse, lie. It’s really good at it.

[temporal1]

If i understand, obama has a law degree, PLUS, experience in community organization.
Sounds great, right? Well, it did.

Unfortunately, he’s “light on Jesus,” heavily into human law. Heavily into political organizing.
Pray for his soul.

Thus, encouragement+support of organized political blocs is what he’s about, to the bone. For him, just logical.
Jesus never did make any human sense.

.. i’m sorry about obama. i hoped he would be a great leader. that would have been super.

The success (damage done) of this reasoning (gov as god) is off the charts. This week, more from the White House bully pulpit.

Christians are challenged to weed out Truth from lies, no easy task. Not always easy, anyway.
Christians are likely to be in the minority, and not popular.

There are rewards.

[Bootstrap]

I wonder how many gay people you know, and how well you know them. Most gay people I know fit the description I gave above. And they see the kind of narratives I'm objecting to quite frequently, dehumanizing fear and hate narratives.

Put yourself in their shoes. Remember that they have faced much more persecution in this country over the years than Christians have. As far as I can tell, most aren't looking for payback, but I suspect they might respond differently to Jesus than they would to political Christianity in this country.

Oh, off the top of my head, I could list 4 that I would be on a first name basis with, three of whom were conservative Mennonites, and one of whom I work with, and one who is my own brother.

Thanks, that's helpful context. I also have family members who identify as LGBTQ and have also worked with LGBTQ people at former jobs.

So I imagine you are often in a tough position in these relationships, working to maintain righteousness and not condone these beliefs and behaviors while still being loving. I know I am. Some people have a really hard time with what I believe, some have cut off relationships. That hurts.

Persecution? We are really comparing homosexual acceptance with Christian persecution now?

No, I'm not comparing homosexual acceptance with Christian persecution. Nor am I comparing Christian acceptance with persecution. People disagree with each other, strongly, about what is right. That's not persecution.

But violent hate crimes, for instance, are persecution. The most recent year with FBI data on this is 2019, here are the relevant violent hate crimes - click on an image to see it large enough to read it:

There are a few violent hate crimes against Christians too, but nowhere near as many.

Or think of it this way - you can probably easily name a handful of insulting, hostile names that are regularly used to describe LGBTQ people. Can you think of equivalent insulting, hostile names used for Christians?

Thieves have also been “persecuted” in this country, and now California says we should quit prosecuting thieves. Should we stop “dehumanizing” thieves? I don’t think we are actually dehumanizing anyone. Point is, these are actually both behaviors - they shouldn’t be identities.

Violent hate crimes against thieves would also be a bad thing. Neither society nor the church should do that. There's a right way for society to approach thieves using the criminal justice system. It involves trials and punishments - and hopefully, attempts at reconciliation and reintegration into the community.

But LGBTQ is not illegal in this country. So the criminal justice system is not relevant. They are here legally, they have the legal right to live here. And Jesus did not relate to sinners by encouraging violent hate crimes or dehumanizing language.

I don’t get divorced people, or fornicators, or thieves for that matter, insisting that I accept their behavior as something intrinsically tied to their personhood. It’s just a whining and exaggerating tactic designed to shut down criticism.

I don't think that anyone can demand that you believe what they want you to believe.

And you can't really demand that people in the world believe what you want them to believe either. Jesus did not accept sin, but he didn't talk to sinners with ugly, hostile, personal attacks. He didn't talk about sinners that way and encourage others to join in. And FWIW, I don't think you do that either, at least not often. But some people do.

And don't you think that Christians do their share of whining and exaggeration to shut down criticism? Let's stop doing that. Let's discuss things carefully, reasonably, seeking ways to show redemptive, Christlike love.

I don’t particularly feel it is good or right that evil behavior is ignored, much less comparing it with righteousness being persecuted.

I agree. As Christians, we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. We should talk about them the way Jesus did. We should love them the way Jesus did.

I think Matthew 23 applies here. What was it that the Pharisees did differently? Why was Jesus so scathing about it? If Christians behave that way, I don't think it is good or right that our evil behavior is ignored, much less compared with righteousness being persecuted. That's not what Jesus looked like.