Miller Farms fined

[Josh]

Once again, whilst I don't agree with what Miller is doing, there are far more pressing food safety issues the state SHOULD be regulating.

Like the absolute rubbish being sold in basically every fast food restaurant or grocery store pushing ultra-processed foods, which are well established in modern medicine and science to cause disease. Why aren't they aiming their regulatory guns at that?

Never thought you would be a top-down regulator of nutrition.

When people have taken baby steps in that direction, the country has an absolute conniption fit. Witness the Michael Bloomberg's attempt to dial back on giant sugary sodas in NYC and Michele Obama's attempts to make marginal improvements in the nutrition of school lunches.

We have the food supply we deserve I guess.

I had no objections to either of those things, although I don’t think they made any difference.

I think a small farm selling fresh food is not only okay, but is also a fundamental human right.

I don’t think a gigantic multinational megacorp, on the other hand, should be allowed to shovel toxic slop onto an unsuspecting public.

[Robert]

I questioned both the government's actions and Miller's actions in this case, and based on my research I think Miller and his obstinate defiance is more likely the problem and not government over-reach.

You may be right. We will see as things progress. I do know governments will overly punish you if you do not conform. I think there is some of this going on also.

I do think both sides are at fault, but I would rather see freedom of the individual then regulation from the state, as a general rule.

[mike]

No, everybody else hasn't gone out of business. Two local farms I do business with sell raw milk directly at their farms, and also in stores in the area including mine. We're all doing fine, and we're selling lots of raw milk. I sell more gallons of raw milk than I do gallons of regular Vitamin D pasteurized homogenized milk. Because we're all doing the simple steps like registration and licensing, milk testing, and having regular department of ag inspections. It's only a big deal because Miller has made it so.

I understand his lawyer will only present one side. The facts are that there has been nothing found in his products that could be problematic. So why have they locked up his business just because he is not filling out some paper correctly? I am sure his lawyer would quickly do that to make things right. I think there is something more going on because of the level of control the State is pressing him with.

This isn't really all about huge problems with his products. A few reported illnesses is just the reason the state of PA finally had to do something again. They have to have known for a long time he was selling without a certification. I wouldn't be afraid to consume Miller's products.

Saying they "locked up his business just because he is not filling out some paper correctly" (of course it is not about not filling it out correctly, it's about his refusal to fill it out at all) is like saying a person who insists on driving without a driver's license has his "driving ability locked up just because he is not filling out some paper correctly."

If this is about the right of the government to make people "fill out pieces of paper correctly" in order to engage in various activities than selling raw milk is only the tip of the iceberg. You may as well refuse to recognize the federal and state government altogether, which of course is what the sovereign citizens are all about.

Alternatively, you can follow the teachings of Jesus and give Caesar what is his, and give God what is his.

[temporal1]

I questioned both the government's actions and Miller's actions in this case, and based on my research I think Miller and his obstinate defiance is more likely the problem and not government over-reach.

You may be right. We will see as things progress. I do know governments will overly punish you if you do not conform. I think there is some of this going on also.

I do think both sides are at fault, but I would rather see freedom of the individual then regulation from the state, as a general rule.

i’m wondering if this is an example of Anabaptists being harder on Anabaptists than they would be others/unknowns?
Also, it seems there’s some personal info that might not be known in detail?

His attorney is making a persuasive case. It might go to a higher court.

i don’t know from anyone else’s perspective.
i do know lots of small businesses, even medium businesses, small chains, are out of business.

and, i know appleman describes very well how hard it is for startups, for younger people.

in my area, devastation resulted in 2008, it has not stopped.
for one reason following another - gov policies are at center.

the Trump years were better. a brief respite.
it was impressive how quickly things could be improved, when looking bleak.

the pandemic caused havoc.

in my lifetime, in business, in church, in schools, communities, and homes, i’ve been amazed how important effective leadership is.
it doesn’t make sense (to me) - but i can’t deny it’s true. one key person can quickly make or break an entire endeavor.

when scriptures tell us to pray for our leaders, i take it to heart.

[Judas Maccabeus]

No, everybody else hasn't gone out of business. Two local farms I do business with sell raw milk directly at their farms, and also in stores in the area including mine. We're all doing fine, and we're selling lots of raw milk. I sell more gallons of raw milk than I do gallons of regular Vitamin D pasteurized homogenized milk. Because we're all doing the simple steps like registration and licensing, milk testing, and having regular department of ag inspections. It's only a big deal because Miller has made it so.

I understand his lawyer will only present one side. The facts are that there has been nothing found in his products that could be problematic. So why have they locked up his business just because he is not filling out some paper correctly? I am sure his lawyer would quickly do that to make things right. I think there is something more going on because of the level of control the State is pressing him with.

This isn't really all about huge problems with his products. A few reported illnesses is just the reason the state of PA finally had to do something again. They have to have known for a long time he was selling without a certification. I wouldn't be afraid to consume Miller's products.

Saying they "locked up his business just because he is not filling out some paper correctly" (of course it is not about not filling it out correctly, it's about his refusal to fill it out at all) is like saying a person who insists on driving without a driver's license has his "driving ability locked up just because he is not filling out some paper correctly."

If this is about the right of the government to make people "fill out pieces of paper correctly" in order to engage in various activities than selling raw milk is only the tip of the iceberg. You may as well refuse to recognize the federal and state government altogether, which of course is what the sovereign citizens are all about.

Alternatively, you can follow the teachings of Jesus and give Caesar what is his, and give God what is his.

My problem would be, that if they let him operate without licensing, regulation and compliance with state requirements, they will need let anyone operate in that manner. He appears to have a well run operation. The next guy may not.

Sorting the difference between the well run operations and the dangerous ones is the role of regulation and licensing, and the guidelines and inspections that go with it.

[Ken]

His attorney is making a persuasive case. It might go to a higher court.

Anyone can appeal anything. Saying you are going to appeal is like saying you are going to sue someone. Anyone can say those things, talk is cheap. But to get your appeal heard you have to make some compelling case that the lower courts erred in their decision. I'm not sure what that would be here. The law is pretty cut and dried. The appeals courts only agree to hear a small fraction of the cases that are appealed to them. Essentially, Amos Miller's argument is that the law shouldn't apply to him. And that is what he lost on.

[RZehr]

i’m wondering if this is an example of Anabaptists being harder on Anabaptists than they would be others/unknowns?

Maybe a little bit. If he wasn’t Amish, but was instead some other religion I would simply shrug it off. But in this case, I believe strongly that he isn’t being faithful to the what we hold to, in addition to whatever else he is disobeying the government on.
In the case of some other religion, I wouldn’t really care or know about how he is or isn’t following his religious teachings.

[Ken]

i’m wondering if this is an example of Anabaptists being harder on Anabaptists than they would be others/unknowns?

Maybe a little bit. If he wasn’t Amish, but was instead some other religion I would simply shrug it off. But in this case, I believe strongly that he isn’t being faithful to the what we hold to, in addition to whatever else he is disobeying the government on.
In the case of some other religion, I wouldn’t really care or know about how he is or isn’t following his religious teachings.

He isn't making any religious freedom claims whatsoever.

So his Amish-ness doesn't seem relevant to the case as far as I'm concerned.

[JohnHurt]

Here is a short video on the Amos Miller "trial".



The video has some good reasons given by Miller's customers why they want to purchase his products.

No customer of Miller is a plaintiff in this case, only the government.

There has been no trial by jury, as guaranteed by the 6th and 7th Amendments to the US Constitution.

[Ken]

Here is a short video on the Amos Miller "trial".



The video has some good reasons given by Miller's customers why they want to purchase his products.

No customer of Miller is a plaintiff in this case, only the government.

There has been no trial by jury, as guaranteed by the 6th and 7th Amendments to the US Constitution.

Miller is perfectly free to continue selling unpasteurized milk products to the public as long as he follows the reasonable health and safety regulations that the rest of the raw milk industry follows.

The Constitution guarantees trial by jury for criminal trials. Amos Miller faced civil charges, not criminal charges. The sanctions are against his business, not him personally. He doesn't face prison time.