George Floyd

[QuietObserver]

If I could add one point to JBG's post,
8. The prophets confessed national sins without excepting themselves or worrying about personal culpability. Corporate confession and repentance have fallen into disfavor because they cut against other american values like individualism and personal responsibility, but I think the church should bring them back.

I don't know what to think about the BLM/racism issues. I do have a lot of difficulty with apologizing for sins that we don't have any close connection to. Recently I listened to a Jewish man relate an interaction he had with a black man on a subway station. The black man apologized to the Jewish man for the Holocaust, and the Jewish man apologized to the black man for racism/slavery. The Jewish man was sharing this story I suppose to establish his enlighted credentials. I find this bizarre. I have empathy for the trauma of the Holocaust, but Americans much less Black Americans had no connection to the Holocaust. I don't see the value in apologizing for things that we had no responsibility. This seems likes a bad idea that could backfire.

The Amish apology tour of the Lapps in Israel is another bizarre example.

I think the prophets speaking as the leaders of a religious/tight ethnic group is not the same situation. For example, a Mennonite pastor apologizing for the mishandling of sex abuse seems appropriate to me and a comparable example. Even though he personally has never mishandled sex abuse.

[Wade]

The thing is, Josh, I don’t work to remedy injustice against black people. I work for what Jesus told us to do without regard to skin colour.

You seem to find that somehow offensive or racist on my part.

Would you mind, so I don't do it again, letting me know what I wrote that made you feel like I was calling you racist over and over again? Thanks...

You called all CA's racist or at least it seems like you are implying that a fair bit - here is one example:

Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things.

And it often seems you relate YOUR experience as what defines CA's:

I certainly could do more than what I have done to be an ally to people of color. Too many times, I have denied their experiences. Too many times, I have laughed at racial jokes. Too many times, I have used the N-word or engaged in microaggressions. I confess it.

It would probably be much easier if you just admitted this is not representative of Anabaptist's. I don't mean in the sense of protecting reputation but please show me how the Anabaptist of the 1500 were racist and then I might think you have a little bit of a point in calling your experiences Conservative Anabaptism.
JoshR belongs to a group that is not 99% white - so your remarks just sound like unfounded reactionary accusations.

It sounds like you were in one ditch and when you finally realized it you cut it hard to get out of that ditch but in the process you are overcompensating(reactionism) and drove right into the ditch on the other side of the road...

[QuietObserver]

I certainly could do more than what I have done to be an ally to people of color. Too many times, I have denied their experiences. Too many times, I have laughed at racial jokes. Too many times, I have used the N-word or engaged in microaggressions. I confess it.

This is religious language, which I can appreciate because you're a Christian. What worries me is the religious language used by woke white people who don't believe in Christianity. Their dogma makes hard-line fundamentalists seem flexible by comparison. They're retained the concept of sin but there seems to be no forgiveness.

Case in point: A former Obama data analyst was fired for tweeting research that shows that violent protests are bad for Democratic election chances.

[barnhart]

If I could add one point to JBG's post,
8. The prophets confessed national sins without excepting themselves or worrying about personal culpability. Corporate confession and repentance have fallen into disfavor because they cut against other american values like individualism and personal responsibility, but I think the church should bring them back.

On this point, I agree, with this clarification. We should not except ourselves if we are confessing sins of the church. However, I wouldn't include myself in the nation's sins. I am part of another kingdom. The prophets didn't exclude themselves from the sins of their people, the children of Israel. We should not exclude ourselves from the sins of our people, the redeemed family of God.

Good point. You may be right.

[barnhart]

I do have a lot of difficulty with apologizing for sins that we don't have any close connection to.

Good point. JBG is apologizing for sin in which he has been complicit. If you don't feel you have been complicit, any apology would be at best insincere.

[joshuabgood]

The thing is, Josh, I don’t work to remedy injustice against black people. I work for what Jesus told us to do without regard to skin colour.

You seem to find that somehow offensive or racist on my part.

Would you mind, so I don't do it again, letting me know what I wrote that made you feel like I was calling you racist over and over again? Thanks...

You called all CA's racist or at least it seems like you are implying that a fair bit - here is one example:

Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things.

And it often seems you relate YOUR experience as what defines CA's:

I certainly could do more than what I have done to be an ally to people of color. Too many times, I have denied their experiences. Too many times, I have laughed at racial jokes. Too many times, I have used the N-word or engaged in microaggressions. I confess it.

It would probably be much easier if you just admitted this is not representative of Anabaptist's. I don't mean in the sense of protecting reputation but please show me how the Anabaptist of the 1500 were racist and then I might think you have a little bit of a point in calling your experiences Conservative Anabaptism.
JoshR belongs to a group that is not 99% white - so your remarks just sound like unfounded reactionary accusations.

It sounds like you were in one ditch and when you finally realized it you cut it hard to get out of that ditch but in the process you are overcompensating(reactionism) and drove right into the ditch on the other side of the road...

Hi Wade...a couple of points. First I spoke to systemic issues in the CA church. I am not naming specific people as having problems with racism, except myself. It feels to me that the distinction between systemic issues and individual racism accusations should be easy to delineate. The truth is, and my written record shows this, I haven't actually called any individuals racist, except myself, in this converation or the one from last year. Again, I have discussed broad systemic racial issues.

And yes, I do stand by my comment with regard to the larger CA Menn world (I am not as familiar with the Holdemans, but I will research their ethnic make up to ascertain their degree of integration). But as for CA Mennonites, yes, our churches are vastly white. And yes, there is a systemic component to this. It isn't purely an accident. The systems get what they are designed to produce. I am also sure that the pervading white culture of power in our circles makes it very very difficult for other minority groups to assimilate. I realize that is a hard truth, and yet I can not, not name it. It is what it is. I am also sure it isn't because we are holier than folks of color. Perhaps this discussion on why our churches are so white would be a good topic for a thread.

Lastly, my shift, to which you referred, wasn't a hard turn, it was a slow gradual turn over about 10 years, prompted by relationships I had with people that helped me see things outside of my experiences.

[Wade]

Would you mind, so I don't do it again, letting me know what I wrote that made you feel like I was calling you racist over and over again? Thanks...

You called all CA's racist or at least it seems like you are implying that a fair bit - here is one example:

Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things.

And it often seems you relate YOUR experience as what defines CA's:

I certainly could do more than what I have done to be an ally to people of color. Too many times, I have denied their experiences. Too many times, I have laughed at racial jokes. Too many times, I have used the N-word or engaged in microaggressions. I confess it.

It would probably be much easier if you just admitted this is not representative of Anabaptist's. I don't mean in the sense of protecting reputation but please show me how the Anabaptist of the 1500 were racist and then I might think you have a little bit of a point in calling your experiences Conservative Anabaptism.
JoshR belongs to a group that is not 99% white - so your remarks just sound like unfounded reactionary accusations.

It sounds like you were in one ditch and when you finally realized it you cut it hard to get out of that ditch but in the process you are overcompensating(reactionism) and drove right into the ditch on the other side of the road...

Hi Wade...a couple of points. First I spoke to systemic issues in the CA church. I am not naming specific people as having problems with racism, except myself. It feels to me that the distinction between systemic issues and individual racism accusations should be easy to delineate. The truth is, and my written record shows this, I haven't actually called any individuals racist, except myself, in this converation or the one from last year. Again, I have discussed broad systemic racial issues.

And yes, I do stand by my comment with regard to the larger CA Menn world (I am not as familiar with the Holdemans, but I will research their ethnic make up to ascertain their degree of integration). But as for CA Mennonites, yes, our churches are vastly white. And yes, there is a systemic component to this. It isn't purely an accident. The systems get what they are designed to produce. I am also sure that the pervading white culture of power in our circles makes it very very difficult for other minority groups to assimilate. I realize that is a hard truth, and yet I can not, not name it. It is what it is. I am also sure it isn't because we are holier than folks of color. Perhaps this discussion on why our churches are so white would be a good topic for a thread.

Lastly, my shift, to which you referred, wasn't a hard turn, it was a slow gradual turn over about 10 years, prompted by relationships I had with people that helped me see things outside of my experiences.

And my experience too has an influence on shaping my perspective. The local ultra CA minister grew up in the Philippines where his dad planted - I believe 6 churches.
I have the church directory in front of me;
1. The first church listed has 15 families listed - one of which is Mennonite.
2. The second has 14 families listed - 5 are Mennonite(one has the wife has a Philippine last name.)
3. Next has 7 families - one is a Mennonite last name.
And etc.
So my contact with the local CA minister is with one that grew up as being the minority as white.

And furthermore - Please show me any information that the Anabaptists of the 1500's were racist! Because if they weren't and you keep calling racist people Anabaptist's or much less conservative Anabaptist's - then this is a gross misrepresentation and disgraceful to the memory of the original Anabaptists. Please show me how you can call racism something that relates to original Anabaptism and if you can't; why do you ruin the name of those that gave their lives for Christ?

[joshuabgood]

Thanks for sharing a bit of your experience as Wade. I can accept that my writing should be more specific. I took it for granted, wrongly, that folks would know I was referring to the modern folks, whom we broadly label CA...as opposed to the original founders 500 years ago. When I use CA Mennonite I mean any Mennonite group to the right of what Ernie calls fundamentalist conservative mennonites, using S Scotts framework. I am not referring to Grebel, Sattler, etc.

[GaryK]

We had an extremely busy day at our restaurant yesterday and I was too tired to respond last evening.

Josh, I do appreciate your passion for this issue and if what you believe and promote can help shake some in the CA world out of the ideologies they have bought into regarding this issue, I say more power to you.

1 - I am in fact apolitical, like I explained in the video, and therefore don't subscribe to right of left ideologies. I will not support these political factions.

Having said what I did above, I believe for those having bought into rightest ideologies in this matter, they will see you as having bought into leftist ideologies and what you say won't be very convincing at all. I believe there is a worldview that is much more convicting and convincing than the one you seem to have espoused, which I refer to at the end.

2 - It's not clear to me that I am telling you, in the quotes above, that you didn't have experiences that you had...which is the essence of your position with regard to people like Keeshon Washington, Daniel Pollard, and many many others. What I am doing is asking you to analyze broad historical trends. The quotes don't accuse you of individual malicious racism. I am asking again, are you willing to tell the vast vast majority of the black community, who state they have experienced systemic racism, that they are in fact wrong about their own experiences?

Whatever the ideology you have espoused is called, it apparently assigns everyone who hasn't bought into it to the "believing blacks didn't have the experiences they did" category. This is an example of the arrogance I referred to earlier. I am being told that my position basically makes it impossible for me to believe Keeshon's, Daniel's and many many others experiences. Nothing could be further from the truth. Before you suggested reading Keeshon's essays or listening to what he has to say, I watched his DKP session on YouTube. One of the thoughts that have gone through my mind about Keeshon's experiences is "how is it possible for anyone who names the name of Jesus to say such hurtful, and frankly, un-Christian, things to him".

So, to be very clear, I firmly reject the inference that my position means that I don't believe black people experience the things they say they do.

3 - I am pushing you around your disposition. That being, being willing to take a learning stance. No. That doesn't mean you have to agree with me. I would expect a learning stance from you to look like this. "Josh, I will read those articles by Keeshon Washington and then discuss them with you and maybe even reach out to my brother Keeshon to talk further. I also will read Just Mercy and then engage further." *Now maybe you did read those things already and just aren't willing to pass along something like "Josh I did read those resources carefully and here is why I am still at a different spot."

Here again, it appears that you believe I am not willing to learn. Maybe it's your gift of teaching coming through, but this comes across to me as: "Gary, here is where you are: I have been teaching you an ideology that you don't seem very open to. Let me tell you how to engage with people who espouse my view, and if you will just try what I'm suggesting, I believe you will become more enlightened".

4 - The last time we had this conversation I had recommended that you reach out to local pastors of color in your community and ask them if they feel systemic racism is an issue in US society. Did you do that? If so with how many Christian pastors? What did they say? Also did you speak with the Asst Supt that you mentioned about whether or not he feels systemic racism is an issue in US society? If you in fact did, and all of these voices confirmed your position, I would appreciate knowing that as it willl demonstrate a learning stance.

Ditto my response to point 3.

Since our last conversation, we as a church have been very inward focused and some things came to a head recently that should open the way for much more involvement in our mission here. We have been talking in recent weeks about our small group meeting with another very small black church here in town and I am planning to pursue that soon.

Rather than me doing what you recommend above, I invite you to come to Thomaston GA and ask the many black people who frequent our establishment and those around our church house, Larry Derico (the school superintendent), pastor Greg (New Life Church), Mr Neil (superintendent of Thomaston Electrical Department) and Ms Glenda who attends our church, whether Gary, his business, and the church he attends are a part of the problem that causes walls to remain in place between people groups or whether they are part of the solution that removes them. I would much rather those around me say what kind of a person I am than some ideology, book, or person who has never met me.

I am much more concerned about what Jesus and the NT writers call being respecters of persons or being guilty of favoritism than I am about what some person wrote about white fragility or white privilege. I am trying, by the grace of God, to be one of those persons within CA circles I heard Keeshon crying out for - those who move beyond talking and live out Jesus to black people on a daily basis. Every one of us will someday stand before a righteous and just God and answer, not primarily for the beliefs we held to, but what we have done for the advancement of HIS Kingdom. This Kingdom advancement worldview is what drives me and I firmly believe this worldview, more than any other, makes it possible to see and understand the plight of those who have been and are being wronged by a sinful, worldly society, regardless of the amount of melanin they have in their skin, and then do something about it. After all, it's the God-designed worldview, guided by the Holy Spirit, which I believe has the propensity to do much more good than any other ideology in addressing the social ills of the current state of affairs.

[joshuabgood]

Thanks for the reply Gary. Just a few more quick thoughts.

I am attempting to espouse the ideology of Jesus Christ, similar to what you described, that being rejecting favoritism, in this case race based favoritism, and catching the spirit of Jesus with regard to not being a respecter of persons. So our ideology is in fact the same on that point. I am not political and dont buy into left or right wing political ideology.

Second, thanks for letting me know that you have taken some steps to explore how people like Keeshon experience systemic racism. Unless I missed it, heretofore, you hadn't mentioned that you had given these folks a close hearing. That kind of thing to me does indicate to me a learning stance. For the record, no I dont think a learning stance means you have to agree with any idea that is taught, it means that you are willing to carefully explore with openness the new idea. That is all. I would always idealize taking a learning stance as well. That is what humility is.

Where there seems to be some differences is around this idea of systemic racism. Based on the testimony of the vast majority of the black population, including our Christian brothers and sisters, and other factors, it seems clear to me it does. If it does, we have a role as followers of Jesus to speak to it both in our private interactions as you describe, and in my view also address it publicly as the broad trend that it is.

I am not surprised by systemic racism, as it seems to me to be a predictable pattern not different philosophically from any other kind of prejudice...ethnocentrism, nepotism, cool kiddism, etc. It is part of the human condition and humans naturally will sink to it. What would surprise me is if it didn't exist.

I would love to visit Thomaston GA. If I ever get close I will look you up. I have no doubt you are doing good work there. And if you introduce me to the people you mentioned I would love to talk to them, learn from them, share stories with them, and come away with a fuller understanding of race relations in our society and in GA in particular. That said, if the time feels right, and if you haven't already, I would encourage to broach the subject of societal race relations with them. Ask them if they have experienced systemic racism and if so what a Christian response to that could look like.