Another business flees

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Another business flees

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:29 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:25 pm And yet the violent crime rate is MUCH higher in Caton so you are still safer in San Francisco.
No, I'm not. None of us have been assaulted in Canton yet. Some of us have in San Francisco.

A city is not just its "violent crime rate". We don't go to the parts of Canton where violence happens, and there is not a lot of random violence between people who don't know each other there. Wheres in San Francisco it is random, unpredictable, and indeed targets people like tourists.
No, it means that anecdotes don't tell the full story. And you are, in fact, 30% more likely to be a victim of violent crime in Canton than San Francisco. In addition, the gap seems to be widening because while violent crime is falling in both cities post-pandemic, it seems to be falling faster in San Francisco.

And of course San Francisco has its bad areas like any other city. In San Francisco that is the tenderloin which is exactly adjacent to Union Square. And that has always been the case since I first visited San Francisco in the early 1980s. However most of the city is as safe as anyplace else. I've walked all over it with my kids in recent years without issue or even feeling threatened.

Now San Francisco and Canton are not remotely comparable cities for a whole lot of reasons. I just made the comparison to illustrate the point that anecdotal reports don't tell the whole story, or even an accurate story, especially in a city as large as San Francisco. You want to make the point that San Francisco is mired in crime due to mis-management. Fine, make the case. Maybe it is. And if it is you should easily be able to find evidence of that and make the point using statistics. Otherwise you are just falling prey to the logical fallacy of confirmation bias when you only seek out anecdotes that confirm what you already believe to be true.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Another business flees

Post by Josh »

The fact that office space is over 40% vacant in SF and that retail is closing everywhere is not "anecdotal".
0 x
MaxPC

Re: Another business flees

Post by MaxPC »

Valerie wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:40 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:29 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:25 pm And yet the violent crime rate is MUCH higher in Caton so you are still safer in San Francisco.
No, I'm not. None of us have been assaulted in Canton yet. Some of us have in San Francisco.

A city is not just its "violent crime rate". We don't go to the parts of Canton where violence happens, and there is not a lot of random violence between people who don't know each other there. Wheres in San Francisco it is random, unpredictable, and indeed targets people like tourists.
I grew up in Southern CA, San Francisco was a wonderful vacation destination Dad took us on when i was 8. There were songs about that city by the bay- trying to remember when it was nicknamed "sin city" because it became known for homosexuality- of corse the hippie/drig culture had changed it some, crime was increasing theough the years yet it was still a vacation destination when my children were young,

Breaks my heart when i see it on the news now & keep hearing from Mom that because of lack of prosecution for theft many businesses have given up.
Likewise. I worked my sabbatical at Santa Clara College in the early 1960s and downtown San Francisco was lovely. Fisherman’s Wharf was not an amusement park then but was the home of fishing boats. The many walkable neighborhoods in northern SF were quite safe and the small family restaurants served outstanding seafood that was better than Cornwall or Bristol.

Three years ago I attended a reunion in the same area of San Francisco. It was shocking to see the level of decline. In broad daylight near a large group of people I saw two thefts of bags. The thieves simply walked over to the person and grabbed the handbags then ran. I am not surprised that the criminal bravado has negatively affected businesses’ ability to remain.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Another business flees

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:57 pm The fact that office space is over 40% vacant in SF and that retail is closing everywhere is not "anecdotal".
It is also not a fact that office vacancy is over 40%. In fact it is 29.5% in the first quarter of 2023 which is still exceedingly high but nowhere near 40%.
https://sfstandard.com/business/downtow ... ing-point/

And that is my point exactly. It is larger economic trends like office vacancy rates that probably have as much to do more more with retail closures than crime. And that has to do with tech companies like Twitter, not crime. Twitter laid of something like 6,000 people, mostly in San Francisco for reasons that had zero to do with crime.

San Francisco is designed for a last-century world where people commute in from the suburbs, work, and then return. Those days may never return and the city will have to re-invent itself. The actual place to start is with increasing housing and yes, addressing crime. But also making the city more livable and affordable in other ways as well. It will be interesting to watch as cities across the country take different approaches to the same end. And who will be the winners and losers.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
ohio jones

Re: Another business flees

Post by ohio jones »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:55 pm And if it is you should easily be able to find evidence of that and make the point using statistics. Otherwise you are just falling prey to the logical fallacy of confirmation bias when you only seek out anecdotes that confirm what you already believe to be true.
Statistics can just as easily be warped by confirmation bias. For example:
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:26 pm Foot traffic in downtown Dallas is still only at 60% of pre-pandemic levels: https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/ ... ons-117829
The article is paywalled, but the first few sentences that are visible contain nuances that you left out (emphasis added):
New Placer.ai data shows that foot traffic to office properties in the Dallas area and 10 other cities has plateaued at about 60% of pre-Covid averages ...
So it's not just downtown, and it's specifically to offices, not total foot traffic. Did you read the entire article? What are the two options that older office stock face? I am actually interested in knowing.

I don't trust sola statistica any more than I trust sola anecdotum. Both need to be carefully examined and contextualized.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Another business flees

Post by Ken »

MaxPC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:30 pm Likewise. I worked my sabbatical at Santa Clara College in the early 1960s and downtown San Francisco was lovely. Fisherman’s Wharf was not an amusement park then but was the home of fishing boats. The many walkable neighborhoods in northern SF were quite safe and the small family restaurants served outstanding seafood that was better than Cornwall or Bristol.

Three years ago I attended a reunion in the same area of San Francisco. It was shocking to see the level of decline. In broad daylight near a large group of people I saw two thefts of bags. The thieves simply walked over to the person and grabbed the handbags then ran. I am not surprised that the criminal bravado has negatively affected businesses’ ability to remain.
Actually the murder rate in San Francisco peaked in 1977 and dropped to a low in 2019. It has ticked up and was at 56 in both 2021 and 2022 which this chart doesn't show. But which means that last year in 2022 the murder rate in San Francisco was about equal to where it was in mid-1960s. So far through June 11 in 2023 there have been 22 murders which is a pace to reach in the mid 40s by year's end, erasing the pandemic-era increases and putting things back to the early 1960s.

Image

The violent crime rate follows a similar pattern, peaking between the late 1970s and early 1990s and falling in recent years to rates not seen since the 1960s

Image

In the 1960s and 1970s much of San Francisco was a dilapidated wreck as middle class people were fleeing south and across the Bay Bridge to the suburbs and across the Golden Gate to Marin County due in part to desegregation but also just general suburbanization which was highly subsidized by the government. That is one reason the place was so cheap and became such a mecca for aimless hippies who could find cheap flop houses and rooms all over the city. The Zebra killers and other violent criminals were stalking the city. Heroin addiction was rampant through the 1960s and into the 1970s until it was eventually superseded by cocaine.

The difference between then and today are twofold.

First, we basically shut down our mental institutions in the 1970s which has flooded our streets with the dysfunctional mentally ill. This chart is actually somewhat deceptive because the prison population is the total prison population, not just the mentally ill, which only contributed about 5% of the increase. But it shows how we deinstitutionalized the mentally ill while switching to an intense incarceration approach to crime and drugs which has brought us where we are today

Image

Second, we went through wave after wave of "urban renewal" in San Francisco and other cities across the country where tore down hundreds of thousands of cheap "flophouse" SRO hotels and such in the name of "urban renewal" and didn't replace them with much except parking lots and eventually office towers. So all those junkies who 50 years ago would have been shooting up 5 floors up in a flea bitten "two-bit 8x12 room paid for by 2 hours of pushing broom" to quote the Roger Miller song are now sitting on the sidewalk because the cheapest studio apartment in San Francisco probably costs $2,000/month with first and last months rent, security deposit, and good credit. There is literally no place else for them to go. There were over 3-times more SRO residential rooms in San Francisco in 1910 then there are today despite the population having doubled in that time. Would it be better for junkies to be shooting up in cheap flop houses like 50 years ago our on the sidewalks like today? I don't know. But out of sight, out of mind means we don't have to deal with the public effects so much.

Image

The history of San Francisco's housing crisis is 100 years in the making and a story of racism and appeasement/coddling of the wealthy https://www.fastcompany.com/90242388/th ... ing-crises

Crime is actually not really any worse than it was 50 years ago in many US cities, San Francisco included. But the dysfunctional vagrants are just WAY WAY more out in the open due to the predictable results of policy choices that we made. So it FEELS way worse. Instant social media and 24/7 cable news doesn't help.

The solutions are there and within reach but will take far more than just attacking crime from a law enforcement perspective. And understanding the roots of the problem makes the solutions obvious. It just takes the political will.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Valerie

Re: Another business flees

Post by Valerie »

It seems to me God is allowing an overall blindness to take place to the realities that are recognizable to those praying to discern. We do not need graphs or charts or stays, its seems something you just "know" in your soul.

Since my family has always lived in CA though, they can actually see the before and after. They are distressed about their government being so lenient on crime and as Californians they do blame that for the closing of stores. Not only that the mentality spreads because it becomes widely known. I'm seeing the changes in my own store influenced by those who think they can get away with things before we know it everything's going to be behind our counter because theft is on the rise. Why not if they get away with it in California why shouldn't they get away with it in Ohio?

San Diego was on the news day before yesterday I could not believe the scenes on the streets, soooo many homeless. It's a very sad situation--

A customer told me she was from seattle. I asked her where she liked it better Seattle or where she lives now in Medina ohio. She said Seattle was beautiful but she likes the environment here. She said it's a much better place to raise a family. Why would that be?
0 x
MaxPC

Re: Another business flees

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:49 pm
Statistics can just as easily be warped by confirmation bias. …

I don't trust sola statistica any more than I trust sola anecdotum. Both need to be carefully examined and contextualized.
Statistical analyses are only honest when they are employed in a straightforward conversion of raw data collected in broad, double blind studies. Interpretation of that data must only be conducted in double blind teams. Otherwise the statistics cannot be honest and becomes a tool for political and commercial manipulative agendas.

There are some situations in which statistics have no place and only raw data is appropriate for an honest appraisal. Crime rates and population numbers are two such cases.
Image
0 x
Josh

Re: Another business flees

Post by Josh »

Ken,

Violent crime wasn’t the topic at hand with regard to businesses fleeing; property crime was.

Property crime in SF has risen to ridiculous levels. You can’t run a business if you get robbed multiple times a day, and if your employees’ and customers’ cars get smashed within minutes of parking, and the police are instructed not to do anything about it.
0 x
MaxPC

Re: Another business flees

Post by MaxPC »

Now AT&T is closing its flagship store in SF.
0 x
Post Reply