Understanding Putin- Ukraine

[Neto]

Not sure how you Ukrain can be considered the publican. In the parable of the publican he beats his chest asking for mercy proclaiming to be a sinner. You crane is promoting LGBTQ- that's hardly calling oneself a sinner- I need a mercy from the Lord

I wasn't referring to the parable Jesus told, only to the general concept of the two groups as perceived in the NT era. Maybe I should have just said "sinners and hypocrites".

Where is the hypocrisy? From an Orthodox point of view (and every denomination besides Anabaptists) they believe in just war- i remember talking to a Baptist creature passing out tracks, when I was seeker to Anabaptism- this preacher truly believed that the Anabaptist misinterpret scriptures regarding defending the Nation- For years I wrestled with this. Mainly because as the Scottish priest points out they pre incarnate Jesus, the Word, Ligos would have been orchestrating killing. Thou shalt not kill was a commandment even though God orchestrated killing- so this isn't really a new testament versus Old testament point of view is understanding the difference. A lot of denominations believe in just war and Nations have in a military and don't see that as violating the ten commandments or what Jesus was talking about when he said love your enemies. Most people I've had these discussions with believe that means personal enemies how you personally handle things and that would have been true with the Old testament understanding of thou shalt not kill while at the same time God telling people to kill. In other words the hypocrisy would be for Russia interpreting like an Anabaptist, but then going to war- but if they believe what they are doing what's right & prophetic, in the last days- not sure that's hypocritical, but only God understands all this in men-

I wasn't referring to just war vs non-resistance, or anything to do with war, or even the Russia-Ukraine war. I was referring to moral hypocrisy. Russia, through its laws regarding morality, makes a claim to personal morality which is not carried out "on the ground". (And again, I'm not referring to war.) Putin himself is reported to have a mistress. The majority of the general population of both countries are probably both by far Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox (and in Ukraine, you have both church organizations). In that there is a union of the Russian Orthodox church and the Russian government, there is this false claim of internal morality. That union, the intertwining, is such that I think that it would be impossible to say which is controlling the other, the church or the State. There might also be somewhat of a struggle between them for control, but their purposes appear to be so shared that one would tend to doubt that.

Ukraine, on the other hand, does not have those moral laws. Do I think that is bad? In one sense, YES, except that I know that "you cannot legislate morality". But this is why I said that Ukraine (as a governmental entity) is the open sinner, the publican. And Russia (again as a governmental entity) is the hypocrite, because they put up this "moral front", while "the inside of the pot is full of moral filth". (And yes, I mean to include the Orthodox Church, because they are intertwined with the State, and not unwillingly.)
[I do not know to what extent the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is intertwined with the Ukrainian secular government. It may well be that they are equally so, but one does not see evidence of that in the news as one does regarding the Russian Orthodox. That may be due to Western bias, I have no way of knowing.]

Oh, what is a Baptist creature? - (Yeah, I know, cellular phone auto-correct, also known as auto-messup.)

[Bootstrap]

Where is the hypocrisy? From an Orthodox point of view ...

Except for Kirill, ALL of the Orthodox Primates condemned the invasion of Ukraine. The one primate who did not, Kirill, seems pretty beholden to Putin and seems to get a lot of special favors from him. That looks like hypocrisy to me. And the other Orthodox primates seem to think it is hypocrisy from an Orthodox point of view.

We could ask Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew where the hypocrisy is from an Orthodox point of view.

Bartholomew: Kirill had to sacrifice his throne for the war in Ukraine even if he had to go to jail

It would not be possible for all the Churches not to condemn the violence, the war. But the Church of Russia let us down. I did not want the Church of Russia and Brother Patriarch Kirill to be this tragic exception.

I don’t know how he can justify himself to his conscience. How he’ll justify it, how history will judge him. He had to stand up for himself. Because one can object to being pressured by President Putin. He should react to the invasion of Ukraine and condemn the war as all the other Orthodox Primates did.

[Ken]

I wasn't referring to the parable Jesus told, only to the general concept of the two groups as perceived in the NT era. Maybe I should have just said "sinners and hypocrites".

Where is the hypocrisy? From an Orthodox point of view (and every denomination besides Anabaptists) they believe in just war- i remember talking to a Baptist creature passing out tracks, when I was seeker to Anabaptism- this preacher truly believed that the Anabaptist misinterpret scriptures regarding defending the Nation- For years I wrestled with this. Mainly because as the Scottish priest points out they pre incarnate Jesus, the Word, Ligos would have been orchestrating killing. Thou shalt not kill was a commandment even though God orchestrated killing- so this isn't really a new testament versus Old testament point of view is understanding the difference. A lot of denominations believe in just war and Nations have in a military and don't see that as violating the ten commandments or what Jesus was talking about when he said love your enemies. Most people I've had these discussions with believe that means personal enemies how you personally handle things and that would have been true with the Old testament understanding of thou shalt not kill while at the same time God telling people to kill. In other words the hypocrisy would be for Russia interpreting like an Anabaptist, but then going to war- but if they believe what they are doing what's right & prophetic, in the last days- not sure that's hypocritical, but only God understands all this in men-

I wasn't referring to just war vs non-resistance, or anything to do with war, or even the Russia-Ukraine war. I was referring to moral hypocrisy. Russia, through its laws regarding morality, makes a claim to personal morality which is not carried out "on the ground". (And again, I'm not referring to war.) Putin himself is reported to have a mistress. The majority of the general population of both countries are probably both by far Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox (and in Ukraine, you have both church organizations). In that there is a union of the Russian Orthodox church and the Russian government, there is this false claim of internal morality. That union, the intertwining, is such that I think that it would be impossible to say which is controlling the other, the church or the State. There might also be somewhat of a struggle between them for control, but their purposes appear to be so shared that one would tend to doubt that.

Ukraine, on the other hand, does not have those moral laws. Do I think that is bad? In one sense, YES, except that I know that "you cannot legislate morality". But this is why I said that Ukraine (as a governmental entity) is the open sinner, the publican. And Russia (again as a governmental entity) is the hypocrite, because they put up this "moral front", while "the inside of the pot is full of moral filth". (And yes, I mean to include the Orthodox Church, because they are intertwined with the State, and not unwillingly.)
[I do not know to what extent the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is intertwined with the Ukrainian secular government. It may well be that they are equally so, but one does not see evidence of that in the news as one does regarding the Russian Orthodox. That may be due to Western bias, I have no way of knowing.]

Oh, what is a Baptist creature? - (Yeah, I know, cellular phone auto-correct, also known as auto-messup.)

Russia has higher divorce rates, higher rates of single parents, higher alcoholism rates, and higher abortion rates than just about any country in Western Europe or North America. The notion that Russia in any way a more “moral” nation or more supportive of “family values” than those in the west is laughable on its face.

[Bootstrap]

The idea that Putin is a symbol of moral virtue is laughable on its face. So is the idea that Kirill speaks for Orthodox Christianity as a whole.

And I just don't see a lot of morality in decimating a neighboring country, bombing civilian neighborhoods, "filtering camps" for civilians, and all that.

[Josh]

Where is the hypocrisy? From an Orthodox point of view (and every denomination besides Anabaptists) they believe in just war- i remember talking to a Baptist creature passing out tracks, when I was seeker to Anabaptism- this preacher truly believed that the Anabaptist misinterpret scriptures regarding defending the Nation- For years I wrestled with this. Mainly because as the Scottish priest points out they pre incarnate Jesus, the Word, Ligos would have been orchestrating killing. Thou shalt not kill was a commandment even though God orchestrated killing- so this isn't really a new testament versus Old testament point of view is understanding the difference. A lot of denominations believe in just war and Nations have in a military and don't see that as violating the ten commandments or what Jesus was talking about when he said love your enemies. Most people I've had these discussions with believe that means personal enemies how you personally handle things and that would have been true with the Old testament understanding of thou shalt not kill while at the same time God telling people to kill. In other words the hypocrisy would be for Russia interpreting like an Anabaptist, but then going to war- but if they believe what they are doing what's right & prophetic, in the last days- not sure that's hypocritical, but only God understands all this in men-

I wasn't referring to just war vs non-resistance, or anything to do with war, or even the Russia-Ukraine war. I was referring to moral hypocrisy. Russia, through its laws regarding morality, makes a claim to personal morality which is not carried out "on the ground". (And again, I'm not referring to war.) Putin himself is reported to have a mistress. The majority of the general population of both countries are probably both by far Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox (and in Ukraine, you have both church organizations). In that there is a union of the Russian Orthodox church and the Russian government, there is this false claim of internal morality. That union, the intertwining, is such that I think that it would be impossible to say which is controlling the other, the church or the State. There might also be somewhat of a struggle between them for control, but their purposes appear to be so shared that one would tend to doubt that.

Ukraine, on the other hand, does not have those moral laws. Do I think that is bad? In one sense, YES, except that I know that "you cannot legislate morality". But this is why I said that Ukraine (as a governmental entity) is the open sinner, the publican. And Russia (again as a governmental entity) is the hypocrite, because they put up this "moral front", while "the inside of the pot is full of moral filth". (And yes, I mean to include the Orthodox Church, because they are intertwined with the State, and not unwillingly.)
[I do not know to what extent the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is intertwined with the Ukrainian secular government. It may well be that they are equally so, but one does not see evidence of that in the news as one does regarding the Russian Orthodox. That may be due to Western bias, I have no way of knowing.]

Oh, what is a Baptist creature? - (Yeah, I know, cellular phone auto-correct, also known as auto-messup.)

Russia has higher divorce rates, higher rates of single parents, higher alcoholism rates, and higher abortion rates than just about any country in Western Europe or North America. The notion that Russia in any way a more “moral” nation or more supportive of “family values” than those in the west is laughable on its face.

Now repeat your comparison with Romania and Ukraine.

[Josh]

The idea that Putin is a symbol of moral virtue is laughable on its face. So is the idea that Kirill speaks for Orthodox Christianity as a whole.

Half of Orthodox are Russian, so going by democratic methods of counting, the ROCOR actually does speak on behalf of Orthodoxy.

And I just don't see a lot of morality in decimating a neighboring country, bombing civilian neighborhoods, "filtering camps" for civilians, and all that.

I agree - that’s why Ukraine shouldn’t have been doing this to Donetsk and Luhansk back in 2014.

[Bootstrap]

And I just don't see a lot of morality in decimating a neighboring country, bombing civilian neighborhoods, "filtering camps" for civilians, and all that.

I agree - that’s why Ukraine shouldn’t have been doing this to Donetsk and Luhansk back in 2014.

And they weren't, this was war propaganda that Putin used to justify invading Ukraine. Don't believe every claim made by an invading army.

• Fact check: Russia falsely blames Ukraine for starting war
• Ukraine crisis: Vladimir Putin address fact-checked
• EXPLAINER: The story behind Ukraine’s separatist regions

[Ken]

I wasn't referring to just war vs non-resistance, or anything to do with war, or even the Russia-Ukraine war. I was referring to moral hypocrisy. Russia, through its laws regarding morality, makes a claim to personal morality which is not carried out "on the ground". (And again, I'm not referring to war.) Putin himself is reported to have a mistress. The majority of the general population of both countries are probably both by far Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox (and in Ukraine, you have both church organizations). In that there is a union of the Russian Orthodox church and the Russian government, there is this false claim of internal morality. That union, the intertwining, is such that I think that it would be impossible to say which is controlling the other, the church or the State. There might also be somewhat of a struggle between them for control, but their purposes appear to be so shared that one would tend to doubt that.

Ukraine, on the other hand, does not have those moral laws. Do I think that is bad? In one sense, YES, except that I know that "you cannot legislate morality". But this is why I said that Ukraine (as a governmental entity) is the open sinner, the publican. And Russia (again as a governmental entity) is the hypocrite, because they put up this "moral front", while "the inside of the pot is full of moral filth". (And yes, I mean to include the Orthodox Church, because they are intertwined with the State, and not unwillingly.)
[I do not know to what extent the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is intertwined with the Ukrainian secular government. It may well be that they are equally so, but one does not see evidence of that in the news as one does regarding the Russian Orthodox. That may be due to Western bias, I have no way of knowing.]

Oh, what is a Baptist creature? - (Yeah, I know, cellular phone auto-correct, also known as auto-messup.)

Russia has higher divorce rates, higher rates of single parents, higher alcoholism rates, and higher abortion rates than just about any country in Western Europe or North America. The notion that Russia in any way a more “moral” nation or more supportive of “family values” than those in the west is laughable on its face.

Now repeat your comparison with Romania and Ukraine.

Both Romania and Ukraine have spent decades if not centuries under the Russian imperial sphere of influence. So clearly they have picked up some bad influences. They would obviously do well to extract themselves from the Russian sphere of influence and orient themselves more towards the west. Which is actually what this war is really about.

[Bootstrap]

Russia has higher divorce rates, higher rates of single parents, higher alcoholism rates, and higher abortion rates than just about any country in Western Europe or North America. The notion that Russia in any way a more “moral” nation or more supportive of “family values” than those in the west is laughable on its face.

Now repeat your comparison with Romania and Ukraine.

Ukraine and Romania each have lower divorce rates than Russia. So does the United States. Nobody claims that gives these other countries the right to invade Russia. And certainly not to commit mass atrocities against the civilian population.

And both Ukraine and Russia are majority-Christian, majority-Orthodox countries.

Religious Belief and National Belonging in Central and Eastern Europe
National and religious identities converge in a region once dominated by atheist regimes



FWIW, here's a useful article that looks at religious belief and national identity in all Eastern European countries:

[Valerie]

Where is the hypocrisy? From an Orthodox point of view (and every denomination besides Anabaptists) they believe in just war- i remember talking to a Baptist creature passing out tracks, when I was seeker to Anabaptism- this preacher truly believed that the Anabaptist misinterpret scriptures regarding defending the Nation- For years I wrestled with this. Mainly because as the Scottish priest points out they pre incarnate Jesus, the Word, Ligos would have been orchestrating killing. Thou shalt not kill was a commandment even though God orchestrated killing- so this isn't really a new testament versus Old testament point of view is understanding the difference. A lot of denominations believe in just war and Nations have in a military and don't see that as violating the ten commandments or what Jesus was talking about when he said love your enemies. Most people I've had these discussions with believe that means personal enemies how you personally handle things and that would have been true with the Old testament understanding of thou shalt not kill while at the same time God telling people to kill. In other words the hypocrisy would be for Russia interpreting like an Anabaptist, but then going to war- but if they believe what they are doing what's right & prophetic, in the last days- not sure that's hypocritical, but only God understands all this in men-

I wasn't referring to just war vs non-resistance, or anything to do with war, or even the Russia-Ukraine war. I was referring to moral hypocrisy. Russia, through its laws regarding morality, makes a claim to personal morality which is not carried out "on the ground". (And again, I'm not referring to war.) Putin himself is reported to have a mistress. The majority of the general population of both countries are probably both by far Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox (and in Ukraine, you have both church organizations). In that there is a union of the Russian Orthodox church and the Russian government, there is this false claim of internal morality. That union, the intertwining, is such that I think that it would be impossible to say which is controlling the other, the church or the State. There might also be somewhat of a struggle between them for control, but their purposes appear to be so shared that one would tend to doubt that.

Ukraine, on the other hand, does not have those moral laws. Do I think that is bad? In one sense, YES, except that I know that "you cannot legislate morality". But this is why I said that Ukraine (as a governmental entity) is the open sinner, the publican. And Russia (again as a governmental entity) is the hypocrite, because they put up this "moral front", while "the inside of the pot is full of moral filth". (And yes, I mean to include the Orthodox Church, because they are intertwined with the State, and not unwillingly.)
[I do not know to what extent the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is intertwined with the Ukrainian secular government. It may well be that they are equally so, but one does not see evidence of that in the news as one does regarding the Russian Orthodox. That may be due to Western bias, I have no way of knowing.]

Oh, what is a Baptist creature? - (Yeah, I know, cellular phone auto-correct, also known as auto-messup.)

Russia has higher divorce rates, higher rates of single parents, higher alcoholism rates, and higher abortion rates than just about any country in Western Europe or North America. The notion that Russia in any way a more “moral” nation or more supportive of “family values” than those in the west is laughable on its face.

That's what happens when 70 years of socialism/communism & promotion of atheism has taken its toll on a society- just look at the direction America has gone without communism and forced atheism and persecution- now imagine the church in America being forced to go underground like it did in Russia how do you think our statistics would look regarding moral decay. We have a whole month dedicated to "PRIDE" with the mockery of God's rainbow, flags are flying . Even with Christianity in our country- look at the drug culture, the violence, the school shootings, the transgender confusion, I could
keep going. I think what counts is what direction a country is going