Opinion on the Roe v. Wade Leak

[HondurasKeiser]

After thinking about this bit, I wonder how likely a Roe overturn actually is. My memory is that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch clearly stated they accept Roe as established precedent and are not looking to undo this type of ruling. Barrette was less committed. I guess we will see.

Not exactly (if my memory serves) - they said they generally believed in respecting precedent up to a point. I do not remember them saying they believed Roe was settled case-law…indeed when asked if they had been asked at any moment during the vetting process about their potential decision on future cases Gorsuch said it never happened and had it had occurred he would have run out of the room as such a question is simply inappropriate.

[Soloist]

If a fetus is a person and is aborted won't all these fetuses automatically go to heaven ?
If your answer is 'yes' then isn't it a risk to allow every fetus to be born and perhaps end up in hell ?
If your answer is 'no' a fetus is not a person then is it murder to halt further development of that fetus ?

I'm curious how believers reply to these questions.

Same logic that someone used to kill their own children.

1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

This is my supporting verse. There is very little that applies to these questions.

[barnhart]

After thinking about this bit, I wonder how likely a Roe overturn actually is. My memory is that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch clearly stated they accept Roe as established precedent and are not looking to undo this type of ruling. Barrette was less committed. I guess we will see.

Not exactly (if my memory serves) - they said they generally believed in respecting precedent up to a point. I do not remember them saying they believed Roe was settled case-law…indeed when asked if they had been asked at any moment during the vetting process about their potential decision on future cases Gorsuch said it never happened and had it had occurred he would have run out of the room as such a question is simply inappropriate.

Are you sure. I think it is a bit more complicated than your recollection. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/10961083 ... on-hearing

[HondurasKeiser]

After thinking about this bit, I wonder how likely a Roe overturn actually is. My memory is that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch clearly stated they accept Roe as established precedent and are not looking to undo this type of ruling. Barrette was less committed. I guess we will see.

Not exactly (if my memory serves) - they said they generally believed in respecting precedent up to a point. I do not remember them saying they believed Roe was settled case-law…indeed when asked if they had been asked at any moment during the vetting process about their potential decision on future cases Gorsuch said it never happened and had it had occurred he would have run out of the room as such a question is simply inappropriate.

Are you sure. I think it is a bit more complicated than your recollection. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/10961083 ... on-hearing

Yeah I’ll stand by my interpretation. Both Gorsuch and Kavanaugh can be read in their hearings as respecting settled law and precedent without having that be construed to mean that they’d never consider overturning bad precedent. In other words they were being artful in their answers but not lying to a group of people that had decided that protection of and fealty to Roe is their guiding star.

Senator Schumer said as much during Kavanaugh’s hearing:

“this is not as simple as Judge Kavanaugh saying that Roe is settled law. Everything the Supreme Court decides is settled law until it unsettles it. Saying a case is settled law is not the same thing as saying a case was correctly decided.”

For her part Justice Sotomayor stated that Heller was ‘settled law during her hearings and upon her arrival to the court, set her sights on the second amendement; joining Breyer’s dissent in MacDonald in which he argued for the overturning of…you guessed it…Heller.

These kinds of dodgy, technical answers from nominees are nothing new, silly inasmuch as they shouldn’t have to answer them in the first place and do not rise to the level of lying.

[temporal1]

It is suspected that there are 10% less abortions in Texas since laws changed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/upsh ... -data.html

I expect that percentage to get smaller as people wanting abortions find alternatives.

However, even if there are 1% less abortions per year in the USA, that is 6000 babies that will have a chance at life.
That is a number I can still get excited about.

A couple years ago I met a young man whose mother got pregnant while studying at Westpoint.
(90% male students and 10% female students. Go figure.)
Anyhow, the mom was the 40th person that year to seek counsel about what to do with her child.
As usual, the counselor gave all the options. Abortion. Adoption. Drop out of college for an unknown length of time.
(The first 39 women chose abortion.)

The counselor was really bothered by this and decided he needed to offer this mom yet another option.
He offered that if she wanted to raise the child, she could stay at he and his wife's home.
She took him up on this offer. That was about 25 years ago.

The young man got his first introduction to Anabaptists when his biological dad brought him to a "Welcoming People from Non-Anabaptist Background Seminar" at Penn Valley Christian Retreat.

That is where I met him.

There are so many alternatives. Choosing not to fornicate is one.
Increasing the value of women and their children, AND increasing the value of manhood and fathers, another.
Self-respect, dignity, honor, responsibility, accountability.

The presumption is that the “need” and rate of for-profit abortion is ever-growing. i believe that is A BIG LIE.
There are established alternatives. People ROUTINELY adjust habits according to many factors, this is no different.
In this case, adjusting habits could lead to overall improved lives/society. Can anyone argue there is no room for improvement?

6000 souls. as a minimum hope.

from conception, each new life makes a Herculian effort to thrive. God designed this. He created it.
the explosion of life on a molecular level. our contemporary world is so blessed with real time scientific medical photography, the wonder of it can be seen by any child with access to libraries, the internet. it’s there for all the world to freely witness.
it’s not a privileged secret!!

there are also readily available images of destruction of new life.

once conception occurs, a unique human life will exit his/her mother’s body, alive or dead. 100% of the time.

Abortion rates are low in post modern countries because of how they define abortion.

It’s imperative the public, including Christians, be keenly aware of continual high-level manipulation of facts+statistics (lies).
One immediate question is: Are abortions caused by “morning after” pills (poison) included in stats? How so??

From what i’ve read, these poison pills are made readily available on college campuses, including some faith-based colleges.

i believe Soloist is correct. i’m not sure of all he knows about it.

poi·son /ˈpoiz(ə)n/
See definitions in:
Chemistry
Physics
noun
1. a substance that is capable of causing the illness or death of a living organism when introduced or absorbed.
"he killed himself with poison"

poison designed to end new human life.

[Soloist]

once conception occurs, a unique human life will exit his/her mother’s body, alive or dead. 100% of the time.

Abortion rates are low in post modern countries because of how they define abortion.

It’s imperative the public, including Christians, be keenly aware of continual high-level manipulation of facts+statistics (lies).
One immediate question is: are abortions caused by “morning after” pills included in stats? How so??

From what i’ve read, these pills are made readily available on college campuses, including some faith-based colleges.

i believe Soloist is correct. i’m not sure of all he knows about it.

The morning after pill is not considered to be abortive due to how they say it works. Nor is IUD's or implants. Obviously there is substantial debate on it. No one is arguing that barrier items prevent abortion/pregnancy but the arguments center around usefulness of education and if the other items are abortive or not. There has been much said on this and most of the political conservative Christians would argue with places like Hobby Lobby and such. I believe though that this comment characterizes this stance quite well

Abortion didn't prevent churches from already being proactive about this. Some of the states that are set to ban abortions also have the stingiest social safety nets. I hope what you're calling for becomes real.

Its ironic that this is so true... In actuality I think the majority can be boiled down to economics and if they were told banning abortion would cost things they actually cared about, I suspect most would publicly protest while voting to continue. Unfortunately it seems like Szdfan's observation is true in some Conservative Mennonite churches as to how they look at the poor or what they decide is okay or not.

[temporal1]

once conception occurs, a unique human life will exit his/her mother’s body, alive or dead. 100% of the time.

Abortion rates are low in post modern countries because of how they define abortion.

It’s imperative the public, including Christians, be keenly aware of continual high-level manipulation of facts+statistics (lies).
One immediate question is: are abortions caused by “morning after” pills included in stats? How so??

From what i’ve read, these pills are made readily available on college campuses, including some faith-based colleges.

i believe Soloist is correct. i’m not sure of all he knows about it.

The morning after pill is not considered to be abortive due to how they say it works. Nor is IUD's or implants.
Obviously there is substantial debate on it.

No one is arguing that barrier items prevent abortion/pregnancy but the arguments center around usefulness of education and if the other items are abortive or not. There has been much said on this and most of the political conservative Christians would argue with places like Hobby Lobby and such. I believe though that this comment characterizes this stance quite well

Abortion didn't prevent churches from already being proactive about this. Some of the states that are set to ban abortions also have the stingiest social safety nets. I hope what you're calling for becomes real.

Its ironic that this is so true... In actuality I think the majority can be boiled down to economics and if they were told banning abortion would cost things they actually cared about, I suspect most would publicly protest while voting to continue.

Unfortunately it seems like Szdfan's observation is true in some Conservative Mennonite churches as to how they look at the poor or what they decide is okay or not.

Thanks.
i imagine i will continue to believe the morning after pills are poison (lay definition, lay understanding).
in the least, from your words, it’s not settled science. the politics+profits involved fairly guarantee continued debate.

God is not confused.

i cannot speak to Szd’s words, he did not mention CMs, and i can’t speak of CMs, other than those i’ve encountered on this forum who have adopted, and attempted to adopt. (many CMs do not vote.) certainly, people can be hypocrites.

But, overall, there are established effective faith-based groups that are known to be dedicated to caring for mothers and babies/children in challenging circumstances. (There have been forum topics on this, with names, contact info, websites, etc.)
It’s an important topic.

From about 2011, Christian services have been under attack by secular groups attempting to eliminate them, with too much success.
Thankfully, courts have sided with (Catholics, who brought the suit) - hopefully, all Christians will benefit. And, hopefully, courts will continue to be consistent.

[mike]

This is a time for the Christian church do get really proactive about helping unwanted babies or babies from unfit mothers, to find an adopted home that is Christian and kind!

I couldn't have said it better.

I could be wrong, but I understand that there are already far more families ready to adopt than there are unwanted babies. I understand that the real need is for adoption of foster children and youth. Again I could be wrong about this, but that's what I have heard.

[mike]

I am not sure what would really change if this opinion ends up being the final ruling. The issue would go back to the states. Red states will get redder and blue states will get bluer. People who want abortions will travel to states that allow it.

However, if it makes abortion less convenient, it will probably result in fewer abortions overall, and that would be a good thing.

[barnhart]

It is suspected that there are 10% less abortions in Texas since laws changed. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/upsh ... -data.html
I expect that percentage to get smaller as people wanting abortions find alternatives.
However, even if there are 1% less abortions per year in the USA, that is 6000 babies that will have a chance at life. That is a number I can still get excited about.

,Yes, that would be a good outcome, and there is the added benefit of making evil things illegal, but what if you have miscalculated and the numbers actually increase. Is it still a net positive. The state I live in saw this moment coming after the 2016 elections. One of the first order of business was to add super strong abortion rights into the state constitution. Time will tell.

A couple years ago I met a young man whose mother got pregnant while studying at Westpoint. (90% male students and 10% female students. Go figure.)
Anyhow, the mom was the 40th person that year to seek counsel about what to do with her child. As usual, the counselor gave all the options. Abortion. Adoption. Drop out of college for an unknown length of time. (The first 39 women chose abortion.) The counselor was really bothered by this and decided he needed to offer this mom yet another option. He offered that if she wanted to raise the child, she could stay at he and his wife's home. She took him up on this offer. That was about 25 years ago.

This vision will be powerful and effective since it doesn't assume the problem of abortion is a legal problem and it doesn't hinge on legal solutions. Let's multiply it by the number of believers there are in the country and see good fruit. If we really put this in action, it wouldn't take long until the legal landscape would change as well. Change the heart of the nation and the laws will follow.