Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Neto

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by Neto »

In terms of culture change, there are other elements which sometimes come into play, such as what in Anthropology is called "Revitalization Movements". This is where a person or group with a certain cultural heritage, possibly even many generations past, will attempt to bring back the former way of life. It is rarely really an authentic revitalization, in terms of cultural accuracy, but it will emphasize certain elements of the past culture beyond their historical significance. In some ways, the 'modern' "conservative anabaptist movement'" is an attempt to "reclaim" the past. As an example of this, 'modern' Amish youth girls will generally wear a covering or at least a veil any time they are out-doors, or in public. Judging from the few old pictures I've seen of my wife's mother & her family, and from the comments of my wife's older Amish relatives, this was not the case as recently as at least the 40's.
One area of culture change we saw in our years with the Banawa (Amazonian Indian tribe) was in the area of music style. When we went there, men & women never sang together. There were two music styles so distinctively different that it was not even possible to sing together. (Not that they didn't sing at the same time. In some odd way which musicians might be able to explain, it actually sounded good together.) When they began having 'church meetings' they were held in the middle of the airstrip, around a pole stuck in the ground, just as the traditional singing was done. But the young people soon created a totally different music style that allowed everyone to sing together, and the singing eventually moved in-doors. It was not any Brazilian music style, either, it was something new. Now if years later, possibly even generations later, some Banawa youth hear recordings of the traditional music, it is possible that they will try to recreate that element of their past culture again. But it will never be quite the same, because some things are always lost in this process. The American Indians and their pow-wow singing & dancing is another example. It is of great cultural significance to them, but it almost certainly does not carry the same meaning as it did before the white invasion and organized suppression of tribal culture.
Getting back to 'conservative Mennonites', I suspect that 4-part harmony accapella singing is an example of this as well. I suspect that while singing w/o instrumental accompaniment is a historical characteristic of the singing style of the past, the 4-part element is something that was added, perhaps to emphasize the difference of accompanied vs unaccompanied singing. (I admit that although I was at one time very much taken with it, I am no longer a fan of this style of singing, because I have heard too much that strikes me as pride in it, and because it 'show-cases' the human voice in a way that distracts from the meaning of the lyrics. I don't think style of music or singing was historically used as an assertion of religious distinctiveness, the way it is sometimes used now. But maybe I am again just viewing all of this from my own cultural background, because I am not an insider to the Swiss Brethren culture. Interestingly, as Ernie makes the point, my children are much more so. But I do hope that as they see the differences in their parents cultural viewpoints, they will be drawn most strongly to the common part, that of faith in Jesus, our Savior & God.)

Wow, I guess I got somewhat off-topic..... :oops:
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steve-in-kville

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by steve-in-kville »

So, in theory, I was never ethnic Mennonite either, as my wife and I both were from brethren backgrounds, attended a KMF church for a few stints (but never members) but found its way back to the brethren church.

Glad I never qualified as being an ethnic Mennonite!! :D

Aurien wrote:
Josh wrote:
Ernie wrote: Ok. I don't think of someone as ethnic Mennonite until the third generation. In my mind it typically (not always) takes about three generations until a person no longer has the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the former culture and has taken on the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the new culture.
Quite a high bar to clear there.

I think there needs to be acceptance that this incident was an intra-ethnic act of violence. I think it’s extremely disingenuous to try to cast out this young man as not somehow part of the Mennonite community.
I'm frankly disgusted by the number of Mennonites (who are ethnic by Ernie's definition) on Facebook who are bending over backwards to try to prove that Mark Gooch was never Mennonite in any way. One woman has gone so far as to say this,
He was a son of a first generation convert family who did not accept the Mennonite church’s reports that their son was ill behaved. So no he was definitely NOT being taught in a traditional Mennonite way.
I saw a comment saying that the Gooch parents’ refusal to deal with their son’s bad behavior got them excommunicated. So the church TRIED to deal with the problem the best way they knew I.E. cause the parents to take hold and steer their son into better behavior. Unfortunately it still didn’t work and now we have this horrible murder. Again- NO it is obvious what went wrong here had nothing to do with being Mennonite. If ONLY the parents would have taken their advice. Instead of shielding his behavior and allowing this monster to be created. How tragic
This is one of only many comments that have been made about how he was never Mennonite in any way, shape or form. I know he rejected the Mennonite way of life and never joined the church. It doesn't change the fact that he was indeed brought up in the Mennonite culture. I don't understand why people are twisting themselves into pretzels to try to prove that he wasn't.
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joshuabgood

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by joshuabgood »

I agree with Ernie's assessment. True acculturation usually takes about 3 generations.

Ernie, wow, you worked with him...It's hard not to ask if there were any "tells" regarding his sociopathy? But please feel free not to answer out of respect for his parents/broader community.
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Aurien
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Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by Aurien »

joshuabgood wrote:I agree with Ernie's assessment. True acculturation usually takes about 3 generations.
So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien

When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
joshuabgood

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by joshuabgood »

Aurien wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I agree with Ernie's assessment. True acculturation usually takes about 3 generations.
So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.
Because your mother was Mennonite, that essentially allows you to skip a generation. You can grow up pretty much, second generation, as a full fledged Menno, much like a third generation NMB would be if both parents were NMB. (Though in some circles, because you father wasn't the "right stock" you may be viewed a little suspiciously unless your family toes the line in just about every way.
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Aurien
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Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by Aurien »

Neto wrote:In terms of culture change, there are other elements which sometimes come into play, such as what in Anthropology is called "Revitalization Movements". This is where a person or group with a certain cultural heritage, possibly even many generations past, will attempt to bring back the former way of life. It is rarely really an authentic revitalization, in terms of cultural accuracy, but it will emphasize certain elements of the past culture beyond their historical significance. In some ways, the 'modern' "conservative anabaptist movement'" is an attempt to "reclaim" the past. As an example of this, 'modern' Amish youth girls will generally wear a covering or at least a veil any time they are out-doors, or in public. Judging from the few old pictures I've seen of my wife's mother & her family, and from the comments of my wife's older Amish relatives, this was not the case as recently as at least the 40's.
One area of culture change we saw in our years with the Banawa (Amazonian Indian tribe) was in the area of music style. When we went there, men & women never sang together. There were two music styles so distinctively different that it was not even possible to sing together. (Not that they didn't sing at the same time. In some odd way which musicians might be able to explain, it actually sounded good together.) When they began having 'church meetings' they were held in the middle of the airstrip, around a pole stuck in the ground, just as the traditional singing was done. But the young people soon created a totally different music style that allowed everyone to sing together, and the singing eventually moved in-doors. It was not any Brazilian music style, either, it was something new. Now if years later, possibly even generations later, some Banawa youth hear recordings of the traditional music, it is possible that they will try to recreate that element of their past culture again. But it will never be quite the same, because some things are always lost in this process. The American Indians and their pow-wow singing & dancing is another example. It is of great cultural significance to them, but it almost certainly does not carry the same meaning as it did before the white invasion and organized suppression of tribal culture.
Getting back to 'conservative Mennonites', I suspect that 4-part harmony accapella singing is an example of this as well. I suspect that while singing w/o instrumental accompaniment is a historical characteristic of the singing style of the past, the 4-part element is something that was added, perhaps to emphasize the difference of accompanied vs unaccompanied singing. (I admit that although I was at one time very much taken with it, I am no longer a fan of this style of singing, because I have heard too much that strikes me as pride in it, and because it 'show-cases' the human voice in a way that distracts from the meaning of the lyrics. I don't think style of music or singing was historically used as an assertion of religious distinctiveness, the way it is sometimes used now. But maybe I am again just viewing all of this from my own cultural background, because I am not an insider to the Swiss Brethren culture. Interestingly, as Ernie makes the point, my children are much more so. But I do hope that as they see the differences in their parents cultural viewpoints, they will be drawn most strongly to the common part, that of faith in Jesus, our Savior & God.)

Wow, I guess I got somewhat off-topic..... :oops:
Yeah it's probably off-topic but I found it interesting to read so I'll forgive you. :lol: :lol:
It's not like we ever stay completely on topic in these threads anyway.
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien

When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
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Aurien
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Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by Aurien »

joshuabgood wrote:
Aurien wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I agree with Ernie's assessment. True acculturation usually takes about 3 generations.
So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.
Because your mother was Mennonite, that essentially allows you to skip a generation. You can grow up pretty much, second generation, as a full fledged Menno, much like a third generation NMB would be if both parents were NMB. (Though in some circles, because you father wasn't the "right stock" you may be viewed a little suspiciously unless your family toes the line in just about every way.
Neither I nor 4 of my siblings feel like we were ever part of the Mennonite "in-crowd." I joined the church and left. Four of my siblings never joined. One sibling stayed Mennonite and married a woman who's also from a long line of Mennonites. Hmm. I wonder if that means my niece can skip to fourth generation Mennonite?
My mother also feels like somewhat of an outsider among most Mennonites in spite of being born and raised Mennonite and having generations of Mennonite ancestors. The woman she's closest to at her church is a woman who was NMB.
Maybe the problem was that my family DIDN'T toe the line. I always felt like we were the problem family everywhere we went. Never fully accepted but people were polite to us because we were part of a Mennonite church. And that was BEFORE anyone knew my father was a sex offender. Even without the sex offenses he was not a good parent or husband. My mother didn't exactly excel in the area of parenting either.
Ah well. That's the way it was and I can't change it. What I want now is for people to be more understanding of those who feel like outsiders in the Mennonite community.
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien

When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
mike

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by mike »

Posted 15 minutes ago on a support page:
Court ruled not eligible for release on bond. Defense requested a bail eligibility hearing, set for May 1 at 10 am.
Prosecutor, in summary of why he requested no bond, stated that defendant transported the victim to Coconino Co where he killed her with a gunshot to the head. Also was found several days later with blunt force trauma to the head. Stated that there was no known direct connection to the victim.
Gooch was not asked to enter a plea on any of the charges. Pretrial hearing was set for Apr. 30 at 9 AM.
Also, the charges read were the same as the court docs we've already seen.
Defense wanted it lowered, of course. State asked for it to be denied entirely or raised to 2 million cash deposit. Judge ruled denied. Defense asked for a bail hearing which they by law have to grant. Judge didn't want to grant the bail hearing but did after reviewing the appropriate laws.
So for now he’s being held without bail until May 1, 2020
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Wade

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by Wade »

All this ethnic talk is really discouraging and makes me to never want to be a Mennonite and glad I am not one...

Titus 3:9

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”
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Ernie

Re: Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

Post by Ernie »

I'm sorry Wade. I just now see I posted after you did. Don't bother to read this if it seems out of line.
Aurien wrote:
joshuabgood wrote:I agree with Ernie's assessment. True acculturation usually takes about 3 generations.
So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.
We are talking about when a person becomes an ethnic Mennonite, not a Mennonite. A person can become a Mennonite whenever he wishes. There is a belief component to being Mennonite. There is a cultural component for many people who become Mennonite, and there is an ethnic component for many Mennonites. In some of my writings, I discuss some of the hurdles between non-ethnic Anabaptists and Anabaptist background folks. I think second generation Anabaptists often struggle with many of the same things as their parents, however since it is was their parents choice to convert, they have the additional struggle of whether to make the same choice as their parents. Again, this applies to any cultural transition, not just a transition to Anabaptism.

If the child of a radicalized Muslim blew up a building of westerners, I would say the radicalized Muslims could and should take credit for this since that is what results from their teaching and doctrine. If a child of a peace-promoting Muslim blew up a building, I would not attribute that to the peace-promoting Muslims at all. If a third or fourth or fifth generation child of a peace-promoting Muslim blew up a building, I would not attribute that to the peace-promoting Muslims either. I would not refer to this child as a peace-promoting Muslim.
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