Debt forgiveness

[appleman2006]

I agree that proper motives for good financial stewardship need to be taught as well.

[Josh]

The big question is how many unrepentant moneylenders will be in heaven.

Not sure what you mean by an "unrepentant moneylender" but if you mean people that have loaned money and taken advantage of their debtors than my answer would be about the same about of unrepentant debtors who recklessly borrowed money with no real plan to repay.

The New Testament never talks once about lending money and then expecting or demanding repayment in a positive way. Seems kingdom citizens should be staying away from this.

[ohio jones]

In the years i helped with high school students i was surprised at how many had no help with how to handle a checkbook, etc. i donated some workbooks. they were interested!

Checkbooks?
Workbooks?
How quaint.

I agree, there is a need for solid financial education, and many high school students would be interested. The principles are timeless, but the tools have changed a bit in recent years.

[appleman2006]

The big question is how many unrepentant moneylenders will be in heaven.

Not sure what you mean by an "unrepentant moneylender" but if you mean people that have loaned money and taken advantage of their debtors than my answer would be about the same about of unrepentant debtors who recklessly borrowed money with no real plan to repay.

The New Testament never talks once about lending money and then expecting or demanding repayment in a positive way. Seems kingdom citizens should be staying away from this.

We have had this discussion before. And we will probably not be able to agree. If you belong to a group who never lends or borrows any money from anyone and have found a way to make that work in modern society I am glad for you. I am assuming that also means not renting anything or lending something out for rent. It amounts to the same thing IMO. Frankly I am a bit surprised at this view coming from someone that claims not to take a fundamentalist view of scripture.

[Josh]

I’m simply saying we should take a hard look at our attitude towards financial transactions in light of scripture.

In particular, Jesus specifically instructed us how God feels about a creditor demanding a destitute debtor pay back. Such a person was to be “turned over to the tormentors”.

God’s law instituted a jubilee, yet in today’s age many question if it could work, arguing that people would take on debts, intending not to repay them. The question isn’t asked why creditors are lending out so much money in the first place.

Ultimately, debt collection is something that is not acceptable for the Christian (and the early church was right behind me on this; the prohibition against usury lasted well into the Enlightenment period). Yet many Christians today are baffled at how one could possibly live without trying to make sterile silver and gold (or paper) somehow reproduce, and have no qualms about sacrificing human sweat and blood to achieve these dividends.

The debtor who can’t repay is looked at as a “bad manager”, “bad with money”, or “he just planned to rip off the lender and never pay it back”. What was Jesus’ attitude?

[temporal1]

I agree that proper motives for good financial stewardship need to be taught as well.

Much of this aspect begins in the home, with parents intentionally or unintentionally modeling their priorities. Children observe, when they grow up they will either choose to continue as they witnessed, or take another path. The topic should not be ignored in classes, but acceptance or rejection of those lessons will probably be hinged on what has been experienced in the home. School is often an extension of the home, not vice versa.

At the time i was helping with Sunday School teens, i was glad to find a workbook written from the Christian perspective that included topics on tithing, charities, scriptural references, etc.
i don’t recall a singularly secular or “me” centered purpose. (i would not have any use for a prosperity gospel approach.)

But, without responsible effort to help, young ones WILL learn from others, particularly from others wanting them to buy-buy-buy.

In the years i helped with high school students i was surprised at how many had no help with how to handle a checkbook, etc. i donated some workbooks. they were interested!

Checkbooks?
Workbooks?
How quaint.

I agree, there is a need for solid financial education, and many high school students would be interested. The principles are timeless, but the tools have changed a bit in recent years.

i’m sure you’re correct. it doesn’t seem long ago, but, tech has changed.

i will add, my family still uses books, my grdaughter prefers books to electronics, we aren’t trying to convince her otherwise.

A fair amount is recorded in scriptures on money.
It makes for interesting reading. Best to read in context, but a starting place:

“Bible Verses About Money:
What Does The Bible Have To Say About Our Financial Lives?”
https://www.biblemoneymatters.com/bible ... ial-lives/

[temporal1]

.. A fair amount is recorded in scriptures on money.
It makes for interesting reading. Best to read in context, but a starting place:

“Bible Verses About Money:
What Does The Bible Have To Say About Our Financial Lives?”
https://www.biblemoneymatters.com/bible ... ial-lives/

Thinking more, there is more than “a fair amount” recorded in scriptures on money.
This link ^^ includes 120+ passages.

Bible Verses About Money
The Bible has a lot to say about money, wealth, greed, contentment and a variety of other topics as they pertain to our financial and spiritual lives. Over the years I’ve heard it said more than once that the Bible has well over 2000 verses about money .. ..

Money is important in scriptures, the way we use it and the value it has for us, is important.
The messages are for everyone interested in eternal consequences.

No matter role, PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY is central.

i search, but i fail to see any reference to masses of people voting to commit other peoples’ money to glorify God. there are numerous ways to handle money decisions to glorify God,
signing up others to do so is not it.

the only explanation i can come up with for this confusion is, “we” Christians, the best of us,
are conflating ourselves with secular government. unfortunately, i’m pretty sure some well-intentioned pastors have misled their flocks. currently, it appears to be quite a few.

if secular gov decides major debt forgiveness is what is needed, so be it.
but, reciting scriptures to “sell it” or justify it, or explain it, or demand it, as gov policy, is a distortion.

A few verses from the link:

Bible Verses About Debt
Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love on another..

Proverbs 22:7
The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.

Psalm 37:21
The wicked borrows and does not repay, But the righteous shows mercy and gives.

Matthew 5:42
Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High.

Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Proverbs 22:26–27
Do not be one of those who shakes hands in a pledge, one of those who is surety for debts; if you have nothing with which to pay, why should he take away your bed from under you? .. ..

[barnhart]

I’m simply saying we should take a hard look at our attitude towards financial transactions in light of scripture.

In particular, Jesus specifically instructed us how God feels about a creditor demanding a destitute debtor pay back. Such a person was to be “turned over to the tormentors”.

God’s law instituted a jubilee, yet in today’s age many question if it could work, arguing that people would take on debts, intending not to repay them. The question isn’t asked why creditors are lending out so much money in the first place.

Ultimately, debt collection is something that is not acceptable for the Christian (and the early church was right behind me on this; the prohibition against usury lasted well into the Enlightenment period). Yet many Christians today are baffled at how one could possibly live without trying to make sterile silver and gold (or paper) somehow reproduce, and have no qualms about sacrificing human sweat and blood to achieve these dividends.

The debtor who can’t repay is looked at as a “bad manager”, “bad with money”, or “he just planned to rip off the lender and never pay it back”. What was Jesus’ attitude?

To my eye, Josh is deploying a Christocentric interpretational strategy here, assuming highest authority to Jesus and working back from there. A more fundamentalist approach would be to line all the scriptural references to money, from OT equations of wealth as evidence of God's blessing, to Jesus and the apostles stern warnings and prohibitions of wealth, and then find a way to balance to two in a middle ground. And I support him in the effort.

[barnhart]

I've been watching this thread to see how it plays out. The title is neutral (Debt forgiveness), the poll question brings in the consideration of what is good "for the economy", and the discussion is largely around the ethics of debt forgiveness (is it right or wrong). The most interesting part for me is to observe the linkage between those two ideas (what the economy demands and what is right).

[temporal1]

I’m simply saying we should take a hard look at our attitude towards financial transactions in light of scripture.

In particular, Jesus specifically instructed us how God feels about a creditor demanding a destitute debtor pay back. Such a person was to be “turned over to the tormentors”.

God’s law instituted a jubilee, yet in today’s age many question if it could work, arguing that people would take on debts, intending not to repay them. The question isn’t asked why creditors are lending out so much money in the first place.

Ultimately, debt collection is something that is not acceptable for the Christian (and the early church was right behind me on this; the prohibition against usury lasted well into the Enlightenment period). Yet many Christians today are baffled at how one could possibly live without trying to make sterile silver and gold (or paper) somehow reproduce, and have no qualms about sacrificing human sweat and blood to achieve these dividends.

The debtor who can’t repay is looked at as a “bad manager”, “bad with money”, or “he just planned to rip off the lender and never pay it back”. What was Jesus’ attitude?

To my eye, Josh is deploying a Christocentric interpretational strategy here, assuming highest authority to Jesus and working back from there. A more fundamentalist approach would be to line all the scriptural references to money, from OT equations of wealth as evidence of God's blessing, to Jesus and the apostles stern warnings and prohibitions of wealth, and then find a way to balance to two in a middle ground. And I support him in the effort.

i was interested in the dialogue between appleman and Josh.
then, i stumbled on the reminder of how important money is in scriptures.

i began thinking there’s much more to it than referencing a couple of favorite verses.
that maybe it’s deserving of more study .. 2000 scriptural references!
there are heavy messages in there. to borrowers and lenders.

then, throw in the government! another wrench thrown in.
(i think) the OP requires the gov be thrown in. it’s about gov response (other peoples’ money) to out of control (borrowers and lenders).