Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[temporal1]

The Polish PM said he feels Europe is in a pre-war situation.

I don't know. It certainly is not a great situation, and if I were in Poland or another adjacent nation, the idea of a wider war would be one of my nightmares.

Perhaps Poland should consider how to have warmer relation with its neighbours instead of getting itself into wars that it can’t win over and over.

That is a terrible take. Throughout its history, Poland got into wars it couldn't win by merely existing.

2 things can be true at once. it takes wisdom to sort them out.

[Szdfan]

Perhaps Poland should consider how to have warmer relation with its neighbours instead of getting itself into wars that it can’t win over and over.

That is a terrible take. Throughout its history, Poland got into wars it couldn't win by merely existing.

2 things can be true at once. it takes wisdom to sort them out.

It is true two things can be true at once. However, I don't think warmer relations with Nazi Germany it was going to prevent Hitler's invasion of Poland since Germany resented the mere existence of that country after Treaty of Versailles created it. I don't think warmer relations with Russia, Prussia, and Austria in the 18th Century were going to prevent these larger empires from dividing up this weaker, independent country to the point that it no longer existed.

The first partition of Poland occurred in 1772 when the Russians, Prussians and the Austrians divided up Poland in order to prevent themselves from going to war with each other. They kept taking land from Poland until the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth no longer existed.

There's a disturbing undercurrent in some of these comments on this thread that weaker countries should just roll over and allow more powerful countries to dominate them or take from them what they want. That's classic imperialism and while it's bad when the US does it, it's apparently ok when Russia does.

[Josh]

Small, weak countries can either find a way to be at peace with their neighbours, or else will have to forge alliances with a bellicose nation they can get to fight on their behalf.

I think the former is a better option.

[temporal1]

Small, weak countries can either find a way to be at peace with their neighbours, or else will have to forge alliances with a bellicose nation they can get to fight on their behalf.

I think the former is a better option.

i believe this was what DJT was advising Zelensky, i wish Z had heeded the advice.
Z was all-in with bellicose nations, obviously promising him the sun-moon-stars.

- - - - - - -

Questions go unanswered about U.S./NATO involvement before Russia’s invasion, Nord Stream doesn’t help.
Now the ISIS attack in Moscow. Russia is questioning Ukraine? Considering Nord Stream, is that far fetched?

These are all corrupt lying states, including the U.S.

Continue pretending otherwise?

[Szdfan]

Small, weak countries can either find a way to be at peace with their neighbours, or else will have to forge alliances with a bellicose nation they can get to fight on their behalf.

I think the former is a better option.

Absolutely, but when the neighbor doesn't respect another country's autonomy or territorial integrity, it limits the options that the smaller country has.

For example, Germany invaded Poland in 1939 not only to regain territory lost by the Treaty of Versailles, but also to expand its "lebensraum" (living space) for ethnic Germans. The Nazis planned to liquidate the Polish population of the General Government (German-occupied Poland) and completely "Germanize" it with German settlers within 20 years. Nazi Germany viewed ethnic Slavs and Poles as subhumans underserving of survival., How would "friendlier" relations from Poland to Germany change any of that?

Putin has also argued that Ukraine doesn't exist. You have also argued something similar in the early pages of this thread. While Ukraine could have been a subservient puppet state to Russia (like Belarus), shouldn't Ukraine be able to decide for itself what its relationship with Russia and the West might look like?

[temporal1]

.. decide for itself ..

??

[Szdfan]

Small, weak countries can either find a way to be at peace with their neighbours, or else will have to forge alliances with a bellicose nation they can get to fight on their behalf.

I think the former is a better option.

i believe this was what DJT was advising Zelensky, i wish Z had heeded the advice.
Z was all-in with bellicose nations, obviously promising him the sun-moon-stars.

- - - - - - -

Questions go unanswered about U.S./NATO involvement before Russia’s invasion, Nord Stream doesn’t help.
Now the ISIS attack in Moscow. Russia is questioning Ukraine? Considering Nord Stream, is that far fetched?

These are all corrupt lying states, including the U.S.

Continue pretending otherwise?

ISIS-K has taken responsibility for the attack. Russia and Putin have plenty of reasons to lie about Ukraine's involvement in the ISIS-K attack.

Over the past several years, ISIS-K has frequently mentioned Russian and Putin in its propaganda. In 2015, the group bombed a Russian charter plane leaving Egypt.

Grievances against Russia from ISIS-K include Russian support for al-Assad in Syria, two Russian wars against Muslims in Chechnya and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The four men arrested by Russia and charged with the attack are from the Muslim former Soviet state of Turkmenistan.

I think Russia is lying about Ukraine's involvement for obvious reasons.

[Szdfan]

.. decide for itself ..

??

Absolutely. I don't think that the Cold War binary that states are either puppets of the United States or the Soviet Union is an accurate reflection of the world's complexity.

[Ken]

Small, weak countries can either find a way to be at peace with their neighbours, or else will have to forge alliances with a bellicose nation they can get to fight on their behalf.

I think the former is a better option.

History suggests you are wrong about that.

Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and Poland all border Russia and all are at peace and prosperous, largely or entirely because the have have joined NATO

Ukraine and Georgia are independent nations on Russia's border who haven't formed alliances and both have been subject to endless war and subjugation by an aggressive neighbor bent on territorial conquest.

It would seem that the Baltic nations and Poland know better than you do. And the experience of Ukraine and Georgia points to the error in your analysis.

The Finns and Swedes, who are no fools (and were previously following your path of neutrality) also took one look at Russia's behavior in Ukraine and voted overwhelmingly to abandon neutrality and join NATO. History will likely prove them correct too.

[Szdfan]

Well... Putin thinks it is "complete nonsense" that Russia might attack a NATO country.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai ... 2193e83f50

But I'm remembering that Putin said there would be no invasion... And then after he invaded he said there would be no occupation... So...
www.npr.org/2022/01/10/1071766987/u-s-r ... frontation
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukr ... tion-plan/

I ran into this with my Dad. Dad has dismissed concerns about a broader invasion of Europe and NATO as "propaganda." He believes, for example, that Finland's reaction to join NATO was an overreaction.

However, Dad is also unsure whether to visit the US this summer because he's worried that he might not be able to get back home to Russia if NATO troops enter Ukraine. I told Dad that's also propaganda. I think neither Russia nor the US wants to see this explode into something larger than a regional conflict. Both sides are trying to push each other as far as they can without escalating it. If Russia invades NATO or if NATO troops enter the Ukraine, I think we are probably looking at World War III. Neither side wants that.

However, I also think that it's completely expected that Russia will be treated like a pariah by most of Europe for invading Ukraine and I don't think concerns about future Russian actions are unreasonable.