HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:43 pm
No, I do not think suffering love always "works" in the temporal i.e. sometimes you end up dead or sometimes society is not preserved or sometimes suffering love alone will allow evil to continue or even grow. Just like sometimes I have to spank my child, sometimes governments need to use police powers to stop injustices from evil actors. The door you want to open is the same that every mid-century, liberal theologian, enamored of Gandhi tried to open 70 years ago. To act like Jesus people need to follow Jesus in heart, mind and soul - his way of suffering love is not a political strategy for toppling injustices - it's a new way of living that points towards the eternal Kingdom.
Gandhi infamously said that the Jews should have committed mass suicide as an act of nonviolent resistance in response to the Holocaust, or at least "offered themselves to the butcher’s knife."
Many of them did. Acts of violent resistance were few and far between. Not so much I think due to pacifist ideology. But more I think a disbelief in what was happening until it was too late.
On the other hand, I do wonder if the history of modern Palestine might have been completely different if the Palestinians had chosen peaceful co-existence and non-violence from the 1949 partition onwards rather than violence. They might well have a thriving peaceful independent state at this point. This was what they rejected
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
On the other hand, I do wonder if the history of modern Palestine might have been completely different if the Palestinians had chosen peaceful co-existence and non-violence from the 1949 partition onwards rather than violence. They might well have a thriving peaceful independent state at this point. This was what they rejected
Each individual should follow Christ including all the way to following his teachings to lay down our weapons and rights and pursue peace and nonresistance.
But it is a bit of a stretch to then say entire groups of people should just go ahead and lay down, and in particular to make utilitarian arguments for doing so. From a utilitarian perspective, I think the "Ukrainians" would be better off with an unconditional surrender. But it's awfully hard to make a moral case for why the entire country's leadership should do so.
To act like Jesus people need to follow Jesus in heart, mind and soul - his way of suffering love is not a political strategy for toppling injustices - it's a new way of living that points towards the eternal Kingdom.
Yes I agree with this...the first part. But not quite the second part.
I think Jesus' his way is in fact a political strategy. Jesus is King/Lord is a political statement. Herod and Caesar understood this. Jesus is/was a threat to the Kingdoms of this world. His polity though is not a geo-political nation state that uses violence, coercion and seals out would be immigrants to protect "our way of life."
Jesus is King. He came and founded his Kingdom as a present reality. The government is on his shoulders. He is the Prince of Peace.
Last edited by joshuabgood on Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
joshuabgood, are you advocating for putting "disciple" instead of "discipline" in the Hebrews passage? Do you think that fits the context and how the original readers of that passage would have understood it?
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:30 pmWell...my counselor once told me "Josh, you can't really force/coerce anybody to do anything important." This was in the context of my children whom I was trying to coerce into certain behaviors I desired. I was resistant to that at the time. Where I am at now, I have a dim view, generally, of corporal punishment. I think our authority needs to be like Jesus, a moral authority. Not authority like the scribes/phariseees, a positional authority with the power to coerce.
"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."
It is difficult to reconcile an anti-corporal punishment position with scripture.
No, I do not think suffering love always "works" in the temporal i.e. sometimes you end up dead or sometimes society is not preserved or sometimes suffering love alone will allow evil to continue or even grow.
I think suffering love does work. However, that is not to say that "works" means "works" in the worldly sense of self preservation, but in the sense that the power of the cross does/has done more to restrain evil than did the law. If the law worked, the power of the cross wouldn't be necessary. The problem is, "law and order" don't work. Those that seek to save their lives lose them, and those that lose them for the sake of our King and his witness, find them. That is the paradox.
I would ask...why not advocate all the time, everywhere for the power of the cross as exampled by our fore-runner, Jesus? When we lay down our lives like he did, take up our cross, like he did, we have the hope of being joint heirs with him in the resurrection of the dead.
On the other hand, I do wonder if the history of modern Palestine might have been completely different if the Palestinians had chosen peaceful co-existence and non-violence from the 1949 partition onwards rather than violence. They might well have a thriving peaceful independent state at this point. This was what they rejected
Each individual should follow Christ including all the way to following his teachings to lay down our weapons and rights and pursue peace and nonresistance.
But it is a bit of a stretch to then say entire groups of people should just go ahead and lay down, and in particular to make utilitarian arguments for doing so. From a utilitarian perspective, I think the "Ukrainians" would be better off with an unconditional surrender. But it's awfully hard to make a moral case for why the entire country's leadership should do so.
The Palestinians and their Arab allies have been CHOOSING war for 75 years. Yes, Palestine is currently a political quagmire and modern 21st century Israel is also complicit. But at countless points in the past 75 years the Palestinians (or their leaders) have chosen war over seeking peaceful settlement. The Ukraine situation is different. Ukraine did not attack Russia and did not elect to engage in a war with Russia. They were attacked. I'm sure the Ukrainians would be happy to rewind the clock back to February 23, 2022 and seek peaceful negotiations instead. So the parallels are weak at best.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:30 pmWell...my counselor once told me "Josh, you can't really force/coerce anybody to do anything important." This was in the context of my children whom I was trying to coerce into certain behaviors I desired. I was resistant to that at the time. Where I am at now, I have a dim view, generally, of corporal punishment. I think our authority needs to be like Jesus, a moral authority. Not authority like the scribes/phariseees, a positional authority with the power to coerce.
"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."
It is difficult to reconcile an anti-corporal punishment position with scripture.
Is a shepherd's rod used to beat the sheep?
Is a shepherd's rod the referent of the quoted passage? If you think it is, could you provide an argument for that reading, as opposed to just dismissing Scripture that doesn't work in your nonviolent hermeneutic?
joshuabgood, are you advocating for putting "disciple" instead of "discipline" in the Hebrews passage? Do you think that fits the context and how the original readers of that passage would have understood it?
The word discipline is derived from disciple.
Yes, but do you think the translation of the Hebrews passage is wrong? If so, could you provide an argument for that (preferably examining the original Greek)?
