Charlie Kirk Shot

[Bootstrap]

With all due respect, I can post many examples of retributive, apocalyptic, and violent rhetoric from conservatives in response to Kirk’s assassination. Some of it has even come from people I’ve interacted with before. But I’d rather not pollute this space with that toxicity.

I've avoided social media for that reason... too large of a portion of that space is filled with family/friends who are looking to a political movement dressed in some Christianize, for comfort/security/direction rather than the way of Jesus and therefore will be reflecting similar rhetoric to what you're seeing/hearing. I've chosen to keep those responses out of sight.

Church Sunday School, I did not share; stuck with listening; and I heard some good things; people wrestling with their emotions and feelings about the shooter and then coming around to hope/prayers that he repents and turns to Jesus; desires to forgive like Jesus, etc - But - I also heard a worrying amount of misinformation/mischaracterization (concerning Charlie Kirk's complexity), broad and slanderous assumptions about other Christians (Christians who rightly disagree with parts of CK's movement/message/approach), and simplistic understandings/assumptions about the big picture and context surrounding this event... (yeah most of our SS are group therapy sessions no matter what's going on, rather than Bible learning/teaching... not sure how I feel about that all the time.?.?)

I worry that some of that can give footholds to mislead us, emotionally draw us into things or directions that don't reflect Jesus or His Way. We need to pray for ourselves and others that the heat stirred up doesn't obscure Holy Spirit discernment...

One thing to keep in mind is that it's quite likely outrage on both sides is not entirely a grassroots reaction. Sure, your friends and family are outraged, but they are largely reflecting what they have seen and heard. Where did it all start, who is amplifying it and who is deciding what they see or don't see on social media? There are multiple actors out there that can benefit from the division. I think I have seen more toxic comments from the right than the left, but I realize that's what the algorithms are pushing my way and may not accurately reflect the big picture.

I see two basic messages in reaction to this shooting:

1. Political violence is horrible. We need to work together to dial down hate and agree to be one country, even though we differ on politics or religion or other things, or
2. Political violence against my side is horrible. My side never does those things. Their side is horrible. We need to defeat those other people.

The second message scares me. The first is encouraging. This is the basic choice our country needs to make.

https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press ... cases-2024

[JohnH]

Does anyone on here know what level of security CK had regularly? Did he have a security detail or was there zero security his entire life? I noticed what appears to be guards in some of his "Prove Me Wrong" debate videos...were they hired by the university???

Usually the university provides its own security and assumes responsibility for such an event and doesn’t even want other private security there.

Why a state-run Utah university had such poor security is a question that should be aimed at Gov. Cox (R-Utah), who is currently busy giving speeches about how everyone needs to support his social media laws restricting freedom of speech. (Apologies if this is getting a bit too political.)

[Bootstrap]

Does anyone on here know what level of security CK had regularly? Did he have a security detail or was there zero security his entire life? I noticed what appears to be guards in some of his "Prove Me Wrong" debate videos...were they hired by the university???

He had a security detail, but a small one. The University also had security. But neither provided the kind of security we would expect for a president. Until now, nobody thought that was needed. This is a little like 9/11, we didn't have the kind of airport security we have now, but one event like this changes the way we think.

Universities are canceling controversial speakers while they figure out how to increase security. Pundits across the political spectrum are also rethinking their safety.

[JohnH]

The second message scares me. The first is encouraging. This is the basic choice our country needs to make.

When 24% of party A believe political violence is acceptable and only 3% of party B do… we have a bit of a problem. Do you have any comment on the aforementioned poll showing a rather large gap between the two dominant political groups in America?

Because, like it or not, this is a problem primarily in only one of the political groups.

[JohnH]

Does anyone on here know what level of security CK had regularly? Did he have a security detail or was there zero security his entire life? I noticed what appears to be guards in some of his "Prove Me Wrong" debate videos...were they hired by the university???

He had a security detail, but a small one. The University also had security. But neither provided the kind of security we would expect for a president. Until now, nobody thought that was needed. This is a little like 9/11, we didn't have the kind of airport security we have now, but one event like this changes the way we think.

Universities are canceling controversial speakers while they figure out how to increase security. Pundits across the political spectrum are also rethinking their safety.

If the result of this is another DHS, TSA, and Patriot Act, that will be disappointing indeed. We should not “change the way we think”. We should expect universities to be places where open debate is held, including with crowds who disagree with each other.

[Southerner]

Does anyone on here know what level of security CK had regularly? Did he have a security detail or was there zero security his entire life? I noticed what appears to be guards in some of his "Prove Me Wrong" debate videos...were they hired by the university???

Usually the university provides its own security and assumes responsibility for such an event and doesn’t even want other private security there.

Why a state-run Utah university had such poor security is a question that should be aimed at Gov. Cox (R-Utah), who is currently busy giving speeches about how everyone needs to support his social media laws restricting freedom of speech. (Apologies if this is getting a bit too political.)

Seems like there's a thing w roofs.

[Wesleyb]

I've avoided social media for that reason... too large of a portion of that space is filled with family/friends who are looking to a political movement dressed in some Christianize, for comfort/security/direction rather than the way of Jesus and therefore will be reflecting similar rhetoric to what you're seeing/hearing. I've chosen to keep those responses out of sight.

Church Sunday School, I did not share; stuck with listening; and I heard some good things; people wrestling with their emotions and feelings about the shooter and then coming around to hope/prayers that he repents and turns to Jesus; desires to forgive like Jesus, etc - But - I also heard a worrying amount of misinformation/mischaracterization (concerning Charlie Kirk's complexity), broad and slanderous assumptions about other Christians (Christians who rightly disagree with parts of CK's movement/message/approach), and simplistic understandings/assumptions about the big picture and context surrounding this event... (yeah most of our SS are group therapy sessions no matter what's going on, rather than Bible learning/teaching... not sure how I feel about that all the time.?.?)

I worry that some of that can give footholds to mislead us, emotionally draw us into things or directions that don't reflect Jesus or His Way. We need to pray for ourselves and others that the heat stirred up doesn't obscure Holy Spirit discernment...

One thing to keep in mind is that it's quite likely outrage on both sides is not entirely a grassroots reaction. Sure, your friends and family are outraged, but they are largely reflecting what they have seen and heard. Where did it all start, who is amplifying it and who is deciding what they see or don't see on social media? There are multiple actors out there that can benefit from the division. I think I have seen more toxic comments from the right than the left, but I realize that's what the algorithms are pushing my way and may not accurately reflect the big picture.

I see two basic messages in reaction to this shooting:

1. Political violence is horrible. We need to work together to dial down hate and agree to be one country, even though we differ on politics or religion or other things, or
2. Political violence against my side is horrible. My side never does those things. Their side is horrible. We need to defeat those other people.

The second message scares me. The first is encouraging. This is the basic choice our country needs to make.

https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press ... cases-2024

Yes, I'm seeing quite a bit of "They are out to get us" messaging. I'm seeing it mostly from the right, but I'm sure it's there on the left also. Likely that is what the shooter was listening to.

[Bootstrap]

The second message scares me. The first is encouraging. This is the basic choice our country needs to make.

When 24% of party A believe political violence is acceptable and only 3% of party B do… we have a bit of a problem. Do you have any comment on the aforementioned poll showing a rather large gap between the two dominant political groups in America?

Because, like it or not, this is a problem primarily in only one of the political groups.

When we look at polls, some do show higher acceptance of political violence among one party than the other. That’s a real concern, and it deserves to be taken seriously.

But if we also look at the acts themselves and who has been harmed, we see a more complicated picture. Victims include Republicans like Steve Scalise, Donald Trump, and Charlie Kirk, and Democrats like Gabby Giffords, Paul Pelosi, Josh Shapiro, Melissa Hortman and her husband. Violence has scarred people on both sides. I think all these names have already been mentioned in this thread. Hortman, Shapiro, Trump, and Kirk were all within the last 12 months.

If you look at the ideology of the people doing it, it's a little complicated because these people are often messed up and a little incoherent, but right-wing violence is at least as serious.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalatin ... ted-states



Polling varies depending on the wording and timing. For example, a 2022 UC Davis survey found about 20% of Americans said political violence is at least sometimes justified. Other surveys (PRRI, YouGov) show partisan differences, often with higher acceptance among Republicans.

To the partisan, everything looks partisan — the answer is always “they are the problem.” But violence is a challenge we all need to face. And for those of us who want to follow Christ as peacemakers, the deeper question isn’t which party is worse, but how we can help break the cycle of violence and model a different way.

[Bootstrap]

By the end of the day, we will probably know more about the shooter's motives.

[JohnH]

Boot,

If you look at actual assassinations, and then look at the motives, there is a clear bias (when for ideological grounds) coming from the left.

Melissa Hortman’s assassin thought he was acting on orders from Gov. Walz. Not a right wing kook. Likewise, Pelosi’s attacker had no clear motive, but it does not appear to have been ideological.

Meanwhile… we’ve had multiple school shootings from individuals motivated by left-wing ideology, the recent assassination appears to have been quite ideological. Not to mention the Charlotte light rail stabber whose dialogue was essentially “I got that white girl”, whose motivation appeared to be race.

If we aren’t willing to talk about the facts in a reasonable way, someone else will, and perhaps in a less reasonable way. Boot, you’ve been saying for years that the actual threat of violence and domestic terrorism is right wing groups. Are you willing to issue a retraction?