Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

I have read Augustine's writings on just war, but not recently. Here, I am quoting the modern version as found in the Catholic Catechism, there are a bunch of variants of it, but I think the modern version is what most people I know associate with the term "just war".

What definition of just war are you using? Does it come from Augustine?

It’s been a little while but last I read it my impression was that he believed any war blessed/ordained by God was a just war. The more modern version applies the logic that God would always bless a war that was seeking to remove evil.

[Bootstrap]

I have read Augustine's writings on just war, but not recently. Here, I am quoting the modern version as found in the Catholic Catechism, there are a bunch of variants of it, but I think the modern version is what most people I know associate with the term "just war".

What definition of just war are you using? Does it come from Augustine?

It’s been a little while but last I read it my impression was that he believed any war blessed/ordained by God was a just war. The more modern version applies the logic that God would always bless a war that was seeking to remove evil.

You may well be right.

I have a hard time thinking like Augustine on many issues. Though I think the first part of the Confessions has some really rich spiritual material.

[barnhart]

...Or do we learn from the past and seek not to see it repeated elsewhere?

Maybe Jesus followers could learn that the genocidal policies of the 19th and 20th centuries were carried out by church going, hymn singing, sincere, self proclaiming christians convinced their cause was just and favored by God.

[mike]

...Or do we learn from the past and seek not to see it repeated elsewhere?

Maybe Jesus followers could learn that the genocidal policies of the 19th and 20th centuries were carried out by church going, hymn singing, sincere, self proclaiming christians convinced their cause was just and favored by God.

Strait up. Most German Christians supported Hitler's war, and they knew enough about the things that were happening to at least be uncomfortable about it. Including the "upright" Christian army generals:

[Ken]

...Or do we learn from the past and seek not to see it repeated elsewhere?

Maybe Jesus followers could learn that the genocidal policies of the 19th and 20th centuries were carried out by church going, hymn singing, sincere, self proclaiming christians convinced their cause was just and favored by God.

Not just the past two centuries. I imagine that most armies in history thought that God was on their side.

[temporal1]

2023
Ukraine is foremost on my mind to start the new year.
There is much to be sad about coming out of 2022, most of all, Ukraine leads.

i suppose the saddest part (for me) is not being aware of even one word coming out of the present admin/Congress about resolution.

Next, the recent images of Zelensky-pelosi kissing and celebrating additional billions ($100 billion in 2022)?
Of course it makes no sense to imagine talks of resolution when such numbers are dedicated to military action and support for military action (glibly labeled humanitarian aid).

i’m ashamed of what’s happening. and what’s not happening, on the U.S. side.

A question for me is, when Russia invaded on Feb 24, who fired first? i don’t know.
When U.S. military lands on foreign soil, are they always met with fire? (i believe not.)

As posted earlier, the U.S. military has presence in MANY countries around the world, more than any other.

i’m not convinced there was only one Feb 24 response, with a price tag of $100 billion (to start).
i’m not convinced Feb 24 couldn’t have been prevented.

i know $100 billion is hard to resist. Men have killed each other over $5.

[temporal1]

^^.. A question for me is, when Russia invaded on Feb 24, who fired first? i don’t know.
When U.S. military lands on foreign soil, are they always met with fire? (i believe not.)

As posted earlier, the U.S. military has presence in MANY countries around the world, more than any other. ..

Reviewing the OP news report link and the first several pages of this topic, it appears Russia arrived, guns and guns-blazing.
It’s hard to be 100% certain. Those are sad pages to review, early on, it doesn’t seem as if any predicted an extended war.
Now close to the first year. Ukraine isn’t the only military hot spot.

i don’t believe Feb 24 was unexpected. There were years leading up to it.

To me there’s a difference in having firearms versus shots fired.
i understand some equate having firearms with violent action, i don’t. i believe most firearms are never used to harm others, includng by individual owners, in local police and national militaries. for which i’m grateful.

[Ken]

^^.. A question for me is, when Russia invaded on Feb 24, who fired first? i don’t know.
When U.S. military lands on foreign soil, are they always met with fire? (i believe not.)

As posted earlier, the U.S. military has presence in MANY countries around the world, more than any other. ..

Reviewing the OP news report link and the first several pages of this topic, it appears Russia arrived, guns and guns-blazing.
It’s hard to be 100% certain. Those are sad pages to review, early on, it doesn’t seem as if any predicted an extended war.
Now close to the first year. Ukraine isn’t the only military hot spot.

i don’t believe Feb 24 was unexpected. There were years leading up to it.

To me there’s a difference in having firearms versus shots fired.
i understand some equate having firearms with violent action, i don’t. i believe most firearms are never used to harm others, includng by individual owners, in local police and national militaries. for which i’m grateful.

As I recall, the war started with Russia raining cruise missiles down on Ukrainian cities while simultaneously invading on multiple fronts. I don't think there is the slightest bit of question about who started it and who fired first. This was pure intentional aggression on Russia's part, not some accidental border incident that spiraled out of control.

Mariupol just one year ago before the Russians came



Mariupol today after the Russians came. An estimated 26,000 civilians were killed in the Russian siege of Mariupol and over 90% of the city was destroyed as you can see below. This is the sort of thing that we used to read about in WW2 history books about places like Stalingrad. But thanks to Vladimir Putin it is still happening today.

[temporal1]

Page 2:

Horrific.

This is nationalist propaganda. I wouldn’t go around repeating it.
(And America isn’t exactly innocent of doing the exact same thing.)

I would be very wary of any voices that want to stir up hatred and make going to war with Russia seem like a good idea.

The msm reminds me so much of the Bush-Iraq days, “it just has to be,” “it’s the right thing to do,” etc.
Notice: 9-11 happened in 2001. U.S. response in Iraq was 2003!

U.S. response in Ukraine was .. from Day 1 .. not after 2 years’ thinking about it. 2 years and still wrong!
i believe this whole thing was set up with Zelensky for years prior to Feb 24. When Russia acted, Zelensky alerted his “team.”

There was no surprise.

There has not been a word from the U.S. about resolution.

(A few years ago, DJT advised Zelensky to find a way to get along with Russia) - which must have been like “running fingernails over a chalkboard” to the U.S. MIC. They cannot bear any such talk. STOP THAT!

i’m reminded of Vietnam, too. sorry to say.
at least, Vietnam was a very unpopular (war). most from all walks of life opposed it. even retired military (i knew, not many) were revolted by Vietnam. they were traumatized at live TV coverage going to everyone’s homes at dinner time.

[mike]

Putin attempting to implement a Christmas ceasefire.