joshuabgood wrote:The point is, the people closest to all the evidence, that interviewed all the suspects, have concluded murder. Not first degree, but in this case third and then second.
Are you so sure that there was not politics involved in these charges? Watch the charges in the King, Ferguson, and Baltimore cases. They all started with strong charges only to be brought down to realistic charges or charges dropped altogether.
It's not so much political partisanship, but I believe there is a certain amount of back-room political pragmatism that goes on in situations like this where government officials (of whatever party) use the justice system to quell the roar of the crowd. No one says it out loud, but you know that government leaders don't just think about whether certain charges are justified or not, but what charges are needed to help settle down the mob and keep more harm and unrest from occurring. That may account for the bump from 3rd to 2nd degree murder for Chauvin, the higher bail amount, as well as the arrest and level of charges against the other officers on the scene.
As I said earlier, I believe this becomes unjust if the charges don't match the crime or if it becomes about vengeance instead of justice. I'm less clear about the legitimacy of pushing for a tougher sentence to quell civil disturbances. In one sense this seems like undue influence on the justice system, but in another sense the justice system exists to keep the peace and ultimately it reflects the will of the society relative to what justice is and how it is served.
joshuabgood wrote:The disagreement here really is...it appears to me, to be whether or not in fact systemic cultural racism exists. Whether or not "white supremacy," at times unwittingly as we are so close to it as white people, exists throughout our culture and institutions.
I say yes it does.
And Josh and others says it doesn't. Why is your assertion more valid than Josh's?
joshuabgood wrote:
The Bible uses the term favoritism. We should not prefer or favor whiteness. That is white supremacy. Jesus also was notably not a respecter of persons.
When the NT refers to the sin of favoritism, is it talking about favoritism within political/governmental/structural systems or is it referring to favoritism within the NT Kingdom? You say we should not prefer or favor whiteness. I fully agree. Should NT Kingdom adherents prefer or favor any ethnicity above another?
You mention Jesus not being a respecter of persons. Yet, aren't you in reality saying that we should be respecters of persons? That's precisely why I asked the earlier question about ken_sylvania's line of questions. I have the confidence he would have asked those questions regardless the ethnicity of the person killed.
joshuabgood wrote:
Your line of inquiry, and I must be frank, has underlying systemic racial tones.
Lines of inquiry that seek to understand the fullest picture of the event have 'underlying systemic racial tones'?
Ok. I'll try to explain...where the racial undertones come from as they would likely be interpreted by the black community.
What does any of George's resisting arrest, prior arrests, high on drugs, etc - have to do with a cuffed man, bleeding from the nose, having his neck asphyxiated by a white man for nearly 9 minutes, after he repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. And that after the white man's friend worriedly noted he couldn't find a pulse? And George was limp. The systemic factor of racism is that even though we saw what we saw, for almost 9 minutes, there is a questioning that seems to include a presumption in favor of the "system" and to not acknowledge what we all saw with our own eyes. The knee of a white man, on the neck of black man (who was already cuffed and subdued and who stated he couldn't breathe and who another cop noted didn't seem to have a pulse) for 9 minutes.
There is a reason that police everywhere are expressing solidarity with the protesters. They saw it also. George Bush, Mitt Romney, and many other conservatives have acknowledged what we saw...
joshuabgood wrote:The disagreement here really is...it appears to me, to be whether or not in fact systemic cultural racism exists. Whether or not "white supremacy," at times unwittingly as we are so close to it as white people, exists throughout our culture and institutions.
I say yes it does.
And Josh and others says it doesn't. Why is your assertion more valid than Josh's?
Well...my point was to at least agree hopefully on where the crucial difference is in this convo.
The "compellingness" of the explanations can stand for themselves. In the video I recorded I traced how white supremacy and American nationalism have marginalized people of color in this society at a systemic level. Further I have pointed to resources that document this, Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson, a great book and good movie now, and 13 a documentary on Netflix. I have also referenced T Coates work as well as White Fragility. And many others...
Additionally, one might actually consider listening to the larger black community or voices like Keeshon Washington or Daniel Pollard from our own CA midst who trace their own experiences of systemic racism in the CA circles as well.
Last edited by joshuabgood on Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
joshuabgood wrote:
The Bible uses the term favoritism. We should not prefer or favor whiteness. That is white supremacy. Jesus also was notably not a respecter of persons.
When the NT refers to the sin of favoritism, is it talking about favoritism within political/governmental/structural systems or is it referring to favoritism within the NT Kingdom? You say we should not prefer or favor whiteness. I fully agree. Should NT Kingdom adherents prefer or favor any ethnicity above another?
You mention Jesus not being a respecter of persons. Yet, aren't you in reality saying that we should be respecters of persons? That's precisely why I asked the earlier question about ken_sylvania's line of questions. I have the confidence he would have asked those questions regardless the ethnicity of the person killed.
Favoritism is with regard to any particular faction. In this society white supremacy has a long and storied history and shared identify. To deny that is historically, indefensible in my mind. Again I spoke to this in more depth in the video I did earlier.
Being no respecter of persons is the same as not showing favoritism. In this society we favor white culture. We prefer it. Our systems were built that way. We have conversely marginalized people of color...in one sense the system seems to prefer them in prison. We built it that way.
Last edited by joshuabgood on Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
joshuabgood wrote:
Being no respecter of persons is the same as not showing favoritism. In this society we favor white culture. We prefer it. Our systems were built that way. We have conversely marginalized people of color...we prefer them in prison. We built it that way.
Who is the "we"? Americans, white Americans, historical white male Americans? Born again people who are following Jesus who are also white Americans?
joshuabgood wrote:
Being no respecter of persons is the same as not showing favoritism. In this society we favor white culture. We prefer it. Our systems were built that way. We have conversely marginalized people of color...we prefer them in prison. We built it that way.
Who is the "we"? Americans, white Americans, historical white male Americans? Born again people who are following Jesus who are also white Americans?
Good question. I mean American society at large. The pronoun choice obfuscates things a little.
joshuabgood wrote:
The Bible uses the term favoritism. We should not prefer or favor whiteness. That is white supremacy. Jesus also was notably not a respecter of persons.
When the NT refers to the sin of favoritism, is it talking about favoritism within political/governmental/structural systems or is it referring to favoritism within the NT Kingdom? You say we should not prefer or favor whiteness. I fully agree. Should NT Kingdom adherents prefer or favor any ethnicity above another?
You mention Jesus not being a respecter of persons. Yet, aren't you in reality saying that we should be respecters of persons? That's precisely why I asked the earlier question about ken_sylvania's line of questions. I have the confidence he would have asked those questions regardless the ethnicity of the person killed.
Favoritism is with regard to any particular faction. In this society white supremacy has a long and storied history and shared identify. To deny that is historically, indefensible in my mind. Again I spoke to this in more depth in the video I did earlier.
Being no respecter of persons is the same as not showing favoritism. In this society we favor white culture. We prefer it. Our systems were built that way. We have conversely marginalized people of color...we prefer them in prison. We built it that way.
I'm not disputing that US history has terrible things in it that favored white culture. My question is: when the NT speaks of the sins of favoritism and being respecters of persons is it speaking about within wordly power structures/societies or within the NT Kingdom?