Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

All war is wrong. And I think it’s pointless to be busy denouncing Hitler unless one is honest and makes the same realisation about the USSR… and then is honest about America.

There were no good guys. There was no just war. War is never justified.

Yes, so don't start one.

But sometimes it still comes to you.

And fighting that war is still wrong.

Ken, this is rather fundamental to what a nonresistant Anabaptist and a Mennonite is. We do not believe in “just war”.

If I did, I would be a Baptist or a Catholic or a Muslim or something like that.

[Ken]

All war is wrong. And I think it’s pointless to be busy denouncing Hitler unless one is honest and makes the same realisation about the USSR… and then is honest about America.

There were no good guys. There was no just war. War is never justified.

Yes, so don't start one.

But sometimes it still comes to you.

And fighting that war is still wrong.

Ken, this is rather fundamental to what a nonresistant Anabaptist and a Mennonite is. We do not believe in “just war”.

If I did, I would be a Baptist or a Catholic or a Muslim or something like that.

Do you believe there are some things that are worse than war?

[Bootstrap]

I could not participate in it. I could not okay it. I couldn't really denounce it either, though - Caesar does bear the sword, I clearly do not, and World War II may be one of the clearest examples where Caesar's actions may have actually met the criteria of a Just War. There were atrocities, of course, like the atom bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the carpet bombing in Dresden, that was truly dreadful, and I would speak out against those things. There were also war crimes by American troops. Throwing innocent Japanese into work camps wasn't cool. These are things I would speak out against.

But I would speak out loudest against what Hitler did. Hitler was a level of pure evil that is truly unusual even among world leaders, and his actions resulted in huge loss of human life and a great deal of severely damaged lives. I don't think the United States was the moral equivalent of Hitler in World War II.

How about you?

All war is wrong. And I think it’s pointless to be busy denouncing Hitler unless one is honest and makes the same realisation about the USSR… and then is honest about America.

There were no good guys. There was no just war. War is never justified.

OK, this is actually more or less a Marpeck versus Sattler thing, which isn't totally surprising. Let me try to describe what I think the difference is - not to convert you, but to see if we can agree on what the difference is:

Bootstrap:

I could never intentionally harm another human being. But I think that Caesar has a different role, and can still be a servant of God by bearing the sword in this sense:

For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

In the Old Testament, actions made by kings are clearly judged and rated according to why and how they do that. I don't really understand how God makes these judgements.

I don't really advocate Just War Theory. But I do advocate You've Got to be Kidding, This is Incredibly Over The Top Even For War Theory. Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Killing Fields. Hitler. And to me, the rapist analogy is relevant. A rapist and a rape victim are not on the same moral level, even if the rape victim uses force to defend herself.

Josh and Soloist? (My attempt to formulate ... please correct me):

All war is so terribly wrong that you can't really make claims like "A is much more to blame than B". Christians need to be outspoken against all war, period.

Points of agreement: (Again, my attempt to formulate ... please correct me):

Helping the victims of war is a very good role for Christians to play, fitting in well with what God has called Christians to do. Christians must not take up arms. Our weapons are not carnal. Our loyalty is to the Kingdom of God.

Ken?

I don't know how you would address each of these things. I'd be curious.

[Ken]

Ken?

I don't know how you would address each of these things. I'd be curious.

War was constant during the Old and New Testament eras and has more or less been a constant fact of human life ever since. Christians cannot stop war by not fighting, nor can they stop it by witnessing against it. If you disagree I invite you to gather a group of pacifists and travel to Moscow to appeal for the end of the Ukraine war. And see what success you have appealing to the leaders of Russia who are waging it.

In my mind, the way to avoid war is to build international institutions and structures to prevent it from happening in the first place. That was the dream of the United Nations. Did did it prevent war? Obviously not. But one could argue that it reduced the pace and ferocity of war compared to the decades that preceded it. As did alliances such as NATO and the Warsaw Pact. And it distresses me to see so many Christian Conservatives labor to tear those institutions down.

Honestly, pacifist churches are such a tiny fraction of Christianity as to have little or no effect. Russia currently believes it is engaged in a religious holy war, for example. And increasingly so does Ukraine. Arguably Christianity has fueled more wars that it has ever prevented. Probably by a 1000-1 ratio.

I grew up Mennonite, attended a Mennonite college, and have lots of devout nonresistant pacifist types in my family and roots. So I am entirely familiar with all the theology and arguments. But frankly, that is the one single aspect of Menno theology that I struggle with the most. I do think there are sometimes worse things than war. And I do think preparing for it is sometimes the best way to prevent it. I came of draft age in 1982 so it was never an issue I was faced with personally. But if I was born in another time and place I honestly don't know what my response would be.

[Soloist]

Ken, I was talking about Soviet Russia after WW2, not during.

[Soloist]

OK, this is actually more or less a Marpeck versus Sattler thing, which isn't totally surprising. Let me try to describe what I think the difference is - not to convert you, but to see if we can agree on what the difference is:

Bootstrap:

I could never intentionally harm another human being. But I think that Caesar has a different role, and can still be a servant of God by bearing the sword in this sense:

For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

In the Old Testament, actions made by kings are clearly judged and rated according to why and how they do that. I don't really understand how God makes these judgements.

I don't really advocate Just War Theory. But I do advocate You've Got to be Kidding, This is Incredibly Over The Top Even For War Theory. Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Killing Fields. Hitler. And to me, the rapist analogy is relevant. A rapist and a rape victim are not on the same moral level, even if the rape victim uses force to defend herself.

Josh and Soloist? (My attempt to formulate ... please correct me):

All war is so terribly wrong that you can't really make claims like "A is much more to blame than B". Christians need to be outspoken against all war, period.

Points of agreement: (Again, my attempt to formulate ... please correct me):

Helping the victims of war is a very good role for Christians to play, fitting in well with what God has called Christians to do. Christians must not take up arms. Our weapons are not carnal. Our loyalty is to the Kingdom of God.

Ken?

I don't know how you would address each of these things. I'd be curious.

Our loyalty is to God and there is no just war. I don’t believe my job is to go and actively seek to stop wars as those countries have the right to wield the sword. Every country wages war for its own selfish means or in defense. God has given them the sword and Ukraine has just as much right to wield it as Russia. I would not however say that Ukraine is waging a “just” war which Christians could fight in. The Old Testament wars were just in contrast. God’s nation was a physical empire and He told them to wage war. Those were just. Now we belong to a different kingdom and God commands us to lay our lives down.
Really if you don’t believe in some form of nonresistance or pacifism, what sort of Anabaptist are you? That group that chose to fight died by the sword.

[Josh]

Here’s part of my perspective.

Back in the 1930s, Russia brutally occupied Ukraine.

The Germans came in and were treated like liberators - which they were. They stopped the brutal Russian occupation.

So who were the “good guys” and the “bad guys” in that fight?

A Christian doesn’t choose sides in a war.

[Bootstrap]

Our loyalty is to God and there is no just war.

I agree.

I don’t believe my job is to go and actively seek to stop wars as those countries have the right to wield the sword.

I agree.

Every country wages war for its own selfish means or in defense. God has given them the sword and Ukraine has just as much right to wield it as Russia. I would not however say that Ukraine is waging a “just” war which Christians could fight in.

I agree. To me, when Caesar wages war "for its own selfish means", that's different from Caesar waging war "in defense". When Caesar seeks to harm as many civilians as possible, that's different from Caesar seeking to protect as many civilians as possible. Do these distinctions make sense to you? I feel like you push back when I make these distinctions. I am not saying that a Christian can participate in war.

On the other hand, I think there are things that Caesar can do as a servant of God that I cannot do as a Christian. I could not be a policeman, but I think policemen fulfill an important "servant of God" role. If we did not have police and armies protecting us from the violence of sinful, greedy people this whole world would be a chaotic mess - just look at any country where the government does not maintain order for ordinary civilians. Afghanistan is one good example. Life is better in a country with a reasonably good Caesar.

The Old Testament wars were just in contrast. God’s nation was a physical empire and He told them to wage war. Those were just. Now we belong to a different kingdom and God commands us to lay our lives down.

I think the Old Testament wars were a mixed bag, and God condemned Israel's actions too sometime. I'm reluctant to use the phrase "just war" at all - some of the worst atrocities in history are committed by religious fanatics convinced that they are doing God's will.

I agree with you, we belong to a different kingdom, God commands us to lay our lives down. That's the real point of clarity.

Really if you don’t believe in some form of nonresistance or pacifism, what sort of Anabaptist are you? That group that chose to fight died by the sword.

I agree.

[Bootstrap]

War was constant during the Old and New Testament eras and has more or less been a constant fact of human life ever since. Christians cannot stop war by not fighting, nor can they stop it by witnessing against it. If you disagree I invite you to gather a group of pacifists and travel to Moscow to appeal for the end of the Ukraine war. And see what success you have appealing to the leaders of Russia who are waging it.

I'm still trying to clarify perspectives rather than trying to convince you that you are wrong. I think that there are at least three distinct ways of seeing the world and evaluating right and wrong in this thread, and we are seeing with different eyes. I'm trying to get a good feeling for what those differences are instead of trying to wrestle everyone into submission.

Here's my perspective: I don't think I can stop war. Period. But I can follow the commands of Jesus. I can help refugees. I can pray for victims. I can send money to organizations that bring blankets and food and water stations into Ukraine.

The Kingdom of God makes no sense to Caesar or to the kingdoms of this world. I don't have to convince Caesar to follow Jesus.

In my mind, the way to avoid war is to build international institutions and structures to prevent it from happening in the first place. That was the dream of the United Nations. Did did it prevent war? Obviously not. But one could argue that it reduced the pace and ferocity of war compared to the decades that preceded it. As did alliances such as NATO and the Warsaw Pact. And it distresses me to see so many Christian Conservatives labor to tear those institutions down.

Here's my perspective: this is all about what makes a good Caesar. The New Testament doesn't have much to say about that. The Old Testament actually does, especially if you look carefully at moral statements made about kings of other nations. God's nation is a special case, you can always argue that commands given to Israel do not apply to secular Caesars, but God's judgement of other kings does seem to give indications of how God would judge a Caesar. In fact, I think the Old Testament is a very strong historical basis for a lot of Caesar's ethics in Europe and the United States.

I agree with you, 70 years of peace in Europe is kind of amazing, if you look at Europe's history. After World War II, the world put institutions in place to avoid another world war. These institutions were fundamental to a long period of relative peace and prosperity that is very unusual. And there are some Christians who actively campaign against those institutions, treating them as the most fundamental kind of evil. It looks like good Caesar to me. And I certainly don't see anything at all in the Bible that says that kind of thing is evil.

And it's all a distraction from the things of Christ. If we want to put God's kingdom first, tearing down Caesar isn't really where our focus needs to be.

Russia currently believes it is engaged in a religious holy war, for example. And increasingly so does Ukraine. Arguably Christianity has fueled more wars that it has ever prevented. Probably by a 1000-1 ratio.

And many Christians think they are in a political culture war that is mostly about the things of Caesar. We cannot seek first the Kingdom of God if our worldview and our energy firmly rooted in that political culture war.

I grew up Mennonite, attended a Mennonite college, and have lots of devout nonresistant pacifist types in my family and roots. So I am entirely familiar with all the theology and arguments. But frankly, that is the one single aspect of Menno theology that I struggle with the most. I do think there are sometimes worse things than war. And I do think preparing for it is sometimes the best way to prevent it. I came of draft age in 1982 so it was never an issue I was faced with personally. But if I was born in another time and place I honestly don't know what my response would be.

I'm a little older than you. I wrote drafts of my views on these things because I thought I might need them. The draft ended about a year before I could actually have been drafted.

I think what I say above is fairly traditional Mennonite theology. I'm not hearing much along these lines anymore. To me, both ends of the Mennonite church have drifted. On both ends, the things of Caesar seem to be really prominent.

[Soloist]

I think the Old Testament wars were a mixed bag, and God condemned Israel's actions too sometime. I'm reluctant to use the phrase "just war" at all - some of the worst atrocities in history are committed by religious fanatics convinced that they are doing God's will.

My logic is that when God commanded them to go wage war on this nation or another it was a Just war. Now the nation and people of God are not a earthly kingdom and likewise our just war is waged in the spiritual realm.