Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Ken]

Russia currently bans American NGOs as it suspects them of being govenrment agencies - and for the most part, its fears are valid.

But let’s flip it around. Let’s say Spain was sponsoring the UK’s invasion of America with money, ships, arms, and also was providing food aid and humanitarian aid to British citizens.

How would you feel about Spain then offering “humanitarian aid” here in America?

OK, let's go with that analogy. But let's remember who invaded whom and use the appropriate names and roles. In your analogy:

Invader: UK
Victim: USA
Third party ally: Spain

In the current event:

Invader: Russia
Victim: Ukraine
Third party ally: USA

How do I feel about the UK invading America? How do I feel about someone supporting that invasion with "humanitarian aid"? Exactly the same way I feel about Russia invading Ukraine and the "humanitarian aid" they are offering in occupied territories that oppose the Russian occupation anyway.

Let me ask this: Putin bombed an apartment complex with cruise missiles and destroyed the local infrastructure. An elderly family had its apartment destroyed with a bomb and needs food and shelter, would you help them? Would you consider this military aid? Would you denounce someone else who chose to do that? Would you denounce Putin's choice to bomb the apartment complex? Would you defend Putin's actions?

Russia is deliberately and illegally targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, and doing it in the middle of winter to increase the suffering. They are either doing this simply out of spite. Or in the mistaken notion that bombing civilians will bring Ukrainians around to their side. Something that has never happened in the modern history of warfare.

So yes, if you object to this and seek to alleviate human suffering you apparently "hate Russia" because you are undermining their "legitimate" war strategy to make Ukrainians suffer.

[Josh]

And the other side claims Ukraine is doing atrocities. War is universally bad and atrocities happen.

Let’s just stop pretending the U.S. government are “good guys” here. Seriously. They’re the ones benefiting the most from dragging this out. It’s about money - a lot of it - and running a global empire.

If I were a Russian in Russia I would be critiquing the Russian empire. But I’m not. I’m focused on home. And my tax dollars are going - a significant amount - to buy arms and bombs.

[Ken]

War is universally bad and atrocities happen.

"atrocities happen"

Right, they just "happen". People and governments have no agency in the matter? They just happen like an act of nature?

Don't you get tired of apologizing for what Russia is doing? It must be exhausting. Even the Russians aren't bothering to do that anymore.

[Josh]

War is universally bad and atrocities happen.

"atrocities happen"

Right, they just "happen". People and governments have no agency in the matter? They just happen like an act of nature?

Don't you get tired of apologizing for what Russia is doing? It must be exhausting. Even the Russians aren't bothering to do that anymore.

I’m not apologising for anything Russia is doing.

But I do expect to see anyone complaining about Russia give as much press to American, Western, and government of Ukraine Republic atrocities.

[Bootstrap]

War is universally bad and atrocities happen.

I’m not apologising for anything Russia is doing.

But I do expect to see anyone complaining about Russia give as much press to American, Western, and government of Ukraine Republic atrocities.

Yes, it's just as bad when the USA and Ukraine send cruise missiles to destroy Moscow. Except ... that's not happening. When it comes to large-scale attacks on civilian populations, hospitals, food supplies, heat and power in the cold of winter, apartment complexes, with no possible pretense of legitimate military targets, we're talking Russian atrocities. When we talk about hauling off people's children without the parent's consent or gulags, we're talking Russian atrocities.

When we're talking who started the war and can end it in a heartbeat without endangering itself, we're talking Russia. The only attacks on Russia have been on the supply lines and bases that target Ukraine.

I don't think you "hate Ukraine", I don't want to throw that line at you the way you have thrown "hate Russia" at people who think Putin throwing cruise missiles at civilians is immoral. But I don't think you are giving a balanced view here.

A rapist and a rape victim both participate in a rape. A rape victim may even do things that you or I would not in order to defend herself. But that does not make her equally guilty of the rape. That distinction is pretty important to any moral judgement of the people involved. I spent a lot of time with a Syrian family who showed me video of their home in Syria destroyed by a Russian made bomb. He was a barber, no political involvement. He just happened to live there. He was not guilty for being bombed.

[Josh]

Boot,

The USA is the top winner when it comes to firing off cruise missiles at innocent victims.

[Bootstrap]

Boot,

The USA is the top winner when it comes to firing off cruise missiles at innocent victims.

Not in the current Ukraine war. And Ukraine has been remarkably clean on that front. Which is one of the reasons they have so much support - they really do seem to have the moral high ground in this war. And of course, David beating Goliath is always a better story than Goliath beating David.

I think the US does bear a lot of guilt for civilian casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yemen, and I have said so. But we are discussing the Ukraine war in this thread. And so far, I'm just not hearing you express a lot of sympathy for the innocent victims of war. Not even for people sitting in their apartment building when a cruise missile hits them. I'm not hearing you express anger at the people who would do such a thing to a civilian apartment building while bragging about the precision of their weapons and showing footage of these civilian attacks on their own news stations.

If this were a rape, I assume you would express sympathy for the victim and not cover up for the rapist. Why is it different here?

[Josh]

Of course the US isn’t firing cruise missiles at Russia. But the only reason is because Russia has significant nuclear deterrent.

[nett]

Not in the current Ukraine war. And Ukraine has been remarkably clean on that front. Which is one of the reasons they have so much support - they really do seem to have the moral high ground in this war. And of course, David beating Goliath is always a better story than Goliath beating David.

This is why I don't think you are actually non-resistant. You are supporting just war with this statement.

The Ukraine was engaging in all manner of aggressive violence prior to this war. It boggles my mind that you want to align yourself with that.

[Ken]

Not in the current Ukraine war. And Ukraine has been remarkably clean on that front. Which is one of the reasons they have so much support - they really do seem to have the moral high ground in this war. And of course, David beating Goliath is always a better story than Goliath beating David.

This is why I don't think you are actually non-resistant. You are supporting just war with this statement.

The Ukraine was engaging in all manner of aggressive violence prior to this war. It boggles my mind that you want to align yourself with that.

Let's get real.

Ukraine has not make one single attack of any kind on Russia at any time during all the years leading up to Russia's February 2022 invasion. In fact, Ukraine has never shown any kind of aggression towards any of its neighbors, ever.

Russia, by contrast, has been engaged in constant attacks on Ukraine since 2014 and before. Constant. In fact, most Ukrainians view this war as having started in 2014 not 2022.