Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

They are literally defending their right to exist as independent nations. Tell me, Ken, do you think the people of Transnistria, Abkhazia, Artsakh, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Palestine should have a right to exist as independent nations and retain their peoplehood? Or should they just be swallowed up into whatever the nearest Western-aligned neighbour is?

Responding to just this one point. It is a fundamental principal of the post-WW2 international order that we do not tolerate the changing of international borders by force. Most of the wars of the past were about territorial expansion and fights over territory. As principal of maintaining peace the world has decided it will no longer tolerate such aggression. Virtually every country in the world outside of a few ethnically insular place like Japan has large ethnic minorities within its borders. That is the rule, not the exception.

Could you explain what happened with Serbia when the U.S. decided to carve off Kosovo, then?

In any event, since the end of WW2, only four countries on the planet have sought to expand their territory through military force and annexation. Iraq tried it in 1990 when they invaded Kuwait. Israel is doing it today with it's de-facto annexation of Palestinian territories. China did it with Tibet. And Russia has done it all across the former Soviet Union in Georgia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Armenia, and other places that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

... what does Russia have to do with places like Artsakh, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, which remain independent nations? These situations are identical to what the West promoted in Kosovo.

Why is it that Russia has to constantly resort to force and military invasion to keep territories under its thumb? When the EU and NATO do not? NATO troops, for example, aren't invading Lithuania to keep them from returning to the Soviet fold.

*laughs* Could you explain what the West was doing invading Serbia, then?

[Neto]

"Ukraine" is not some culture independent of Russia. It is part and parcel a part of Russian culture and people and always has been, going back for millennia.

I do not see how this can possibly be at all true. If it were, then why did Stalin, an ethnic Russian, attempt to wipe out the language & culture of the Ukrainians? If this is true, then why are SOME ethnic Russian Ukrainians (i.e., legal residents and citizens of the nation of Ukraine) upset that Ukrainian was designated as the official language of Ukraine? (Language is a large part of culture.)

[Josh]

A comparison of the economic performance of two neighboring states is instructive.

I checked your linked sources and am I seeing correctly that Ukraine's GDP per capita is $3,727, which is 58% of Belarus and 23% of Poland?

Yes, wars and life under an utterly-corrupt Russian puppet state through 2014 will do that to an economy. It's not surprising the Ukrainians want a change.

Are you saying Belarus is not an utterly-corrupt Russian puppet state?

And Ukraine has moved into the Western sphere of influence since 2014 when the Orange Revolution happened. They've had 8 years to get their act together, but so far all they seem to be able to muster the courage to do is to shell Donetsk and Luhansk.

[Josh]

"Ukraine" is not some culture independent of Russia. It is part and parcel a part of Russian culture and people and always has been, going back for millennia.

I do not see how this can possibly be at all true. If it were, then why did Stalin, an ethnic Russian, attempt to wipe out the language & culture of the Ukrainians? If this is true, then why are SOME ethnic Russian Ukrainians (i.e., legal residents and citizens of the nation of Ukraine) upset that Ukrainian was designated as the official language of Ukraine? (Language is a large part of culture.)

Let's look at various Slavic dialects:



Russian and Ukrainian are simply two very closely related dialects. The bigger question is why the Ukrainian government felt the need to force people to speak Ukrainian who don't want to in places like Odessa and Sevastopol. This is more akin to fighting over whether a Yankee accent or a Southern accent is "better".

This is an intra-Slavic conflict and indeed an intra-Russian one; "Ukraine" as an independent entity largely exists because of decisions made by Lenin when the USSR was being formed. I have a very difficult time understanding why we need to take USSR political divisions seriously today.

[Karstan78]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... n-invasion

Anabaptists are evacuating and heading south, with the hopes of finding hospitality with believers outside the country.

I already wrote to Ernie, but if there are any refugee believers that need help in Germany or getting to Germany please PM me, we want to try and assist in any way we can.

[ohio jones]

"Ukraine" is not some culture independent of Russia. It is part and parcel a part of Russian culture and people and always has been, going back for millennia.

Borders in that region have been pretty fluid over the years. If you're going back that far, Poland and Lithuania have claims to large portions of Ukraine as well. Nor is the cultural identity of the current state homogeneous.

Tell me, Ken, do you think the people of Transnistria, Abkhazia, Artsakh, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Palestine should have a right to exist as independent nations and retain their peoplehood? Or should they just be swallowed up into whatever the nearest Western-aligned neighbour is?

So Donetsk and Luhansk should have a right to exist as independent nations -- but Ukraine should not, and should just be swallowed up into the nearest non-Western-aligned neighbor? If that's your view, I don't see how it makes any logical sense.

NATO exists in order to be a threat to Russia and "contain" Russia from a military perspective. Tell me, if you were in charge of Russia, what would your response be? How would you deal with an existential threat on your borders?

If Ukraine survives as an independent nation, it is virtually guaranteed to join the EU and NATO on a fast-track basis, thanks to the shift of public opinion resulting from Putin's invasion. Russia-friendly bureaucrats seem to have been doing a pretty efficient job of stalling those applications up until now.

[Ken]

Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in its domain, and it's instructive to consider why. They started with immense resources including Russian aerospace and vast natural resources, and yet they've ended up being one of the poorest countries in Europe and poorest satellite states.

Ken,

It is frankly utterly obvious why Ukrainians are more interested in casting their fate with the west rather than Russia. As should be their right as a free and independent people since 1991. They are not a colony of Imperial Russia. And the days of imperial conquest should be long behind us.

Could you explain why Ukrainians in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk have all expressed a desire to be part of Russia? If you need reminding, I can pull up the electoral results of the referendum in Crimea.

These electoral results in which over 80% of the Ukrainian electorate voted overwhelmingly for independence from the USSR and Russia? including within all of the regions that you mentioned? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum

And which is it? You keep mixing up your conflicting Russian propaganda memes. Do they want independence? Or do they want to be part of Russia? Those are two different things.

[Neto]

"Ukraine" is not some culture independent of Russia. It is part and parcel a part of Russian culture and people and always has been, going back for millennia.

I do not see how this can possibly be at all true. If it were, then why did Stalin, an ethnic Russian, attempt to wipe out the language & culture of the Ukrainians? If this is true, then why are SOME ethnic Russian Ukrainians (i.e., legal residents and citizens of the nation of Ukraine) upset that Ukrainian was designated as the official language of Ukraine? (Language is a large part of culture.)

Let's look at various Slavic dialects:



Russian and Ukrainian are simply two very closely related dialects. The bigger question is why the Ukrainian government felt the need to force people to speak Ukrainian who don't want to in places like Odessa and Sevastopol. This is more akin to fighting over whether a Yankee accent or a Southern accent is "better".

This is an intra-Slavic conflict and indeed an intra-Russian one; "Ukraine" as an independent entity largely exists because of decisions made by Lenin when the USSR was being formed. I have a very difficult time understanding why we need to take USSR political divisions seriously today.

Due to some security settings on my computer, I cannot view the photo you posted.
Regarding the issue of dialects vs languages, as a (trained field) linguist I would just say that that is very muddy waters your're wading in. There is not even any agreement on the difference between a dialect vs a language among the most prominent linguists, with all sorts of different percentages of mutual-intelligibility given as the "cut off point". Then you get into different areas of language (that dealing with the concrete world as opposed to the spiritual, for instance) and the percentage can be drastically different. One could also say that there should not be the separate nations of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and so forth. Then there are Spain & Portugal, and throw in Romania and Italy, and maybe France as well. Then look at South America. certainly all the Spanish language countries are also "the same culture and language"? (Just to be clear, I would not say so.)
But even considering the linguistic similarities of the respective languages here, the cultural differences are what determine the self-identity of a people group, and to varying degrees, political views are also a part of culture. I do not intend to say more here, but I just don't buy it.

[Josh]

Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in its domain, and it's instructive to consider why. They started with immense resources including Russian aerospace and vast natural resources, and yet they've ended up being one of the poorest countries in Europe and poorest satellite states.

Ken,

It is frankly utterly obvious why Ukrainians are more interested in casting their fate with the west rather than Russia. As should be their right as a free and independent people since 1991. They are not a colony of Imperial Russia. And the days of imperial conquest should be long behind us.

Could you explain why Ukrainians in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk have all expressed a desire to be part of Russia? If you need reminding, I can pull up the electoral results of the referendum in Crimea.

These electoral results in which over 80% of the Ukrainian electorate voted overwhelmingly for independence from the USSR and Russia? including within all of the regions that you mentioned? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum

And which is it? You keep mixing up your conflicting Russian propaganda memes. Do they want independence? Or do they want to be part of Russia? Those are two different things.

They want to be guaranteed freedom from Western interference, colour revolutions, and the freedom to be non-aligned. Generally Russia doesn’t want more of these breakaway states in the Russian federation proper. Most of the states would very much like to be in the Russian federation, like Transnistria.

A rather good analogy would be if Mexico annexed Texas but Texarkana was still populated by American partisans, but Mexican cartels kept shelling civilians in Texarkana.

Would you feel comfortable with Russia forming a “defence” treaty with Mexico?

[QuietlyListening]

"Ukraine" is not some culture independent of Russia. It is part and parcel a part of Russian culture and people and always has been, going back for millennia.

If this is true why did Stalin go in and literally starve the Ukrainians to death to claim their rich grain fields? It is all spoken about and recorded in the book The Red Famine- Stalin's war with Ukraine. That doesn't speak to an independent culture for Russia. I have met several Ukrainians in my work with ESL- they speak of their culture as separate they do not consider themselves Russian.

As to language- one couple we worked with the wife spoke both Russian and Ukrainian as she was better with languages but her husband grew up with the USSR owning? Ukraine and did not speak Ukrainian. Their children spoke mostly Ukrainian by choice as they were part of the independent Ukraine after the USSR split up.

Do you know any Ukrainians or have you read any of their words as opposed to news media on either side? What I am hearing from them, not thru new media but directly from them- they did not want this to occur, they do not wish to be a part of Russia.