The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[steve-in-kville]

Would catastrophic satisfy you, though?

I know you're not asking me that question, but.... yes and no. Not in a vengeful way, but in a way that should rock the Anabaptist community enough to get the point across: you are not above the law and you can no longer hide behind your community, the Bible, or your religion.

[Josh]

Would catastrophic satisfy you, though?

I know you're not asking me that question, but.... yes and no. Not in a vengeful way, but in a way that should rock the Anabaptist community enough to get the point across: you are not above the law and you can no longer hide behind your community, the Bible, or your religion.

Well, just hold a protest and complain the police are targeting you. Then you can!

[KirkDaniel]

Would catastrophic satisfy you, though?

I know you're not asking me that question, but.... yes and no. Not in a vengeful way, but in a way that should rock the Anabaptist community enough to get the point across: you are not above the law and you can no longer hide behind your community, the Bible, or your religion.

Well, just hold a protest and complain the police are targeting you. Then you can!

What on earth is this supposed to mean, and how does this help the conversation?

[Josh]

I know you're not asking me that question, but.... yes and no. Not in a vengeful way, but in a way that should rock the Anabaptist community enough to get the point across: you are not above the law and you can no longer hide behind your community, the Bible, or your religion.

Well, just hold a protest and complain the police are targeting you. Then you can!

What on earth is this supposed to mean, and how does this help the conversation?

The zeitgeist in society at large is that if you don’t like the police and have some grievance with them, it’s OK to encourage people not to call the police, not to report crimes, and so on. The excuse is “calling the police might result in police brutality”.

This is exactly the messaging certain ethnic Anabaptists have been saying for years.

[flyingnorm]

Well, just hold a protest and complain the police are targeting you. Then you can!

What on earth is this supposed to mean, and how does this help the conversation?

The zeitgeist in society at large is that if you don’t like the police and have some grievance with them, it’s OK to encourage people not to call the police, not to report crimes, and so on. The excuse is “calling the police might result in police brutality”.

This is exactly the messaging certain ethnic Anabaptists have been saying for years.

Exactly this. When in a setting of abuse, one often hears about how the poor abuser is now a victim of the criminal justice system. Our that the prison sentence is not fair. Or that the judge was mean. Or that the police was bad.

Its wierd how some segments of anabaptism use conservative lifestyles to hide anarchistic ideals and call it a two kingdom concept.

Is that what the prophet Amos refers to as "turning justice to poison"?

[I Timothy]

Does anyone know if "the powers that be" from CAM are paying any attention to the negativity they are getting? Do they care? I thought I read somewhere they hawked this forum but considered it the "vocal minority."

Let me speak CAM "powers that be" for you and see if they care?

2019 contributions =$49,401,288
2018 contributions =$52,205,493

investment income =$756,951
JM scandal cost =$420,000

Expense paid, contributions took a minor hit (a rounding error). 2018 =$50M and 2019=$50M What more is there to care about? They can now continue as before.

I look at the numbers and see a decrease in giving of 5.4% over the entire year. The scandal was not publicized until midway through the year, and I suspect that many who have decided to defund CAM did not reach that decision until months later after allowing a grace period for response(s) they could consider satisfactory. So a month-to-month comparison with the previous year would give a more complete picture, but it seems to me the hit was somewhat significant, but not catastrophic.

Would catastrophic satisfy you, though?

I have thought about this a week. Yes, catastrophe or near catastrophe would have been good. It would have shown that those in the CA community, especially the rich and powerful will not stand for abuse. Instead, those with money yawned and looked the other way. I have had several millionaire business owners chastise me for attacking CAM's handling of this. They do have business relationships with CAM and it would disrupt their business to stand up to CAM. There are also those who use CAM to support their marketing image, the CA is bunch of good ole boys who would never harm anyone. You can trust and do business with us.

Follow the money, there is to much money involved to let the image of CAM be tarnished.

[Ernie]

1. Some assume that CAM leadership in general is corrupt or they assume that CAM has a bad culture.
2. Others assume that a few leaders/pockets within CAM are/were corrupt and assume that CAM has probably not dealt with these pockets.
3. Still others (including the ones relieved of their positions at CAM) believe that responsible ones who have been relieved of their positions, were good men who made some really bad mistakes - mistakes an organization cannot afford to make.

After 300+ pages of discussion on various threads, I've come to the realization that we all have our starting place, from which we make comments. As long as we have different starting places, I think we will probably talk past each other.

[Aurien]

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/06/19/g ... l-charges/

[steve-in-kville]

Does anyone know for sure what CAM's command structure is like? I take it there is a board, but is there a CEO/president and VP's? I can't find anything on their website.

[steve-in-kville]

Our churches need to be safe places for people to confess their struggles. A person should be able stand up in church and say, 'I've been struggling with my sexuality lately. Could you pray for me?' In the current environment, it is not safe to do this."

I've been wanting to start a thread on this but do not have the time to fully engage with it. So if someone else wants to start a thread on this, go for it.

This really should be its own thread.

I know of a few people who tried this... openly talked about their struggles. The one had his membership pulled immediately and they dangled it in front of him for years until he gave up and went off the reservation entirely. I really felt bad for him.

The other was actually ordained, resigned from that, only for years later for the issue to surface again (it made the news that time.) For years, no one really knew how deep into it he was.

None of the above situations involved minors, or even anything that was non-consensual, BTW.