No human remains found 2 years after claims of ‘mass graves’ in Canada

[Soloist]

If the idea of a superior white Christian culture involves raping children… there is clearly some problems.

Christianity is obviously superior. The people who claim are not.
I don’t think that taking children away from their parents is ever a good plan to re-educate them as Christians.

I think the VBS model is much better. If the children want to go they’re going to learn more than if they’re taken away by force.
The language is the least of the concern for Christianity.

[Ken]

With respect to how Native Americans were treated in the US and Canada I would suggest G.K Chesterton go it about right:

“The problem with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult and left untried.”
― G.K. Chesterton

[Falco Knotwise]

Agreed, I think there's plenty of historical evidence to show just that. It wasn't ALL terrible - Pop Warner and Jim Thorpe seemed to have really gotten a lot out of the Carlisle School for example. It wasn't all good though either and it was definitely started with the intent purpose of educating the Indian out of the man.

I am not sure how representative his pedagogical philosophy was for everyone at the time. First of all, Henry R. Pratt was American, not Canadian, and he said he took his pedagogical inspiration from the Puritans. I doubt his pedagogical principles were shared by Catholics, Mennonites, and all sorts of others involved in the schools.

Also, he was genuinely concerned to see minorities learn and advance rather than languish in prisons. (His first schools were in prisons for Indians the army put him in charge of.) He was also opposed to segregation on the same principles and was the first to use the word ‘racism’. He probably was looked upon favorably by the progressives and, for his time, he probably was one.

So a couple of things can be true at the same time. It can be true that Pratt and others had good intentions, but that they also reflected the prejudices of their time and their attempt at being helpful and progressive harmed and traumatized native people seeking to assimilate them into white culture. If you believe that your own white, Christian culture is superior to native cultures (as Pratt clearly did), it's easy to harm the people you are trying to help, regardless of your intentions.


He also cites “Where Are the Children Buried,” a report to the TRC by Dr. Scott Hamilton of Lakehead University if anyone is interested in looking it up.

Mr. Pratt’s idea that assimilating native people into the industrial economy as the answer to all their problems sounds far more expressive of an enlightened progressive understanding than a Christian one. If these were really the attitudes of all those involved (I still have my doubts there) than I would say the same of all of them.

In the words of a good critical race theorist . . .

For his time, Pratt was definitely a progressive," Snyder said. Indeed, he thought his ideas were the only thing keeping Native peoples from being entirely wiped out by disease and starvation. "That's one of the dirty little secrets of American progressivism — that [progress] was still shaped around ideas of whiteness."

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch ... ord-racism

However, I would suggest the critical race theorist is just as enlightened and progressive as Mr Pratt in his thinking, and that his idea of condemning a culture of whiteness is as simplistic as Mr Pratt’s idea of condemning Indian culture, having equally devastating consequences, potentially getting even worse.

[Bootstrap]

In general, these graves simply haven't been excavated yet. We will know more when we know more.

Is that the same as saying no evidence?

No, I'm saying that:

1. The National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation maintains a register of "Missing Children and Unmarked Burials", currently listing 4,130 children who died in these schools - 1, 2. We know these children disappeared. We do not know where they were buried.

2. We have only preliminary evidence of the graves themselves, based on Ground Penetrating Radar. This needs to be confirmed by excavation before we can know if these are actually the unmarked graves where these children are buried.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... rave-sites

In hindsight, the announcement of the results of the radar testing was made with a caveat. It was seen as a “preliminary” finding, yet the media and politicians ran with the story that mass graves were found at the site of a former residential school.

He noted that Sarah Beaulieu, the anthropologist who performed the initial radar testing, tried to rein in the media tsunami at a July 15, 2021 press conference.

“We need to pull back a little bit and say that they are ‘probable burials,’ they are ‘targets of interest,’ for sure,” Beaulieu had said, adding that the sites “have multiple signatures that present like burials,” but that “we do need to say that they are probable, until one excavates.”

[Bootstrap]

Do you now no longer believe there is any credible evidence of any mass graves at any schools?

I think most of the evidence of graves involves individual graves. There does seem to be some evidence of at least one mass grave, associated with pandemics.

Which one are you referring to?

Blue Quills is the one I was thinking of:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton ... -1.6457286

There may be others.

In general, "unmarked graves" is the best way to characterize most of the graves. Unmarked graves, without records to say where the children were buried.

[Bootstrap]

If the idea of a superior white Christian culture involves raping children… there is clearly some problems.

Christianity is obviously superior. The people who claim are not.
I don’t think that taking children away from their parents is ever a good plan to re-educate them as Christians.

I think the VBS model is much better. If the children want to go they’re going to learn more than if they’re taken away by force.
The language is the least of the concern for Christianity.

I agree with all of this.

I'd also add this: we can learn a LOT about what Christianity is when we encounter Christians from other cultures. In the New Testament time, Jews initially thought everyone had to become culturally Jewish. Paul made them really uncomfortable when he brought in Greeks.

I do think we should make disciples of all the nations. I don't think that will make all nations embrace our culture.

[ken_sylvania]

In general, these graves simply haven't been excavated yet. We will know more when we know more.

Is that the same as saying no evidence?

No, I'm saying that:

1. The National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation maintains a register of "Missing Children and Unmarked Burials", currently listing 4,130 children who died in these schools - 1, 2. We know these children disappeared.

2. We have only preliminary evidence of the graves themselves, based on Ground Penetrating Radar. This needs to be confirmed by excavation before we can know if these are actually the unmarked graves where these children are buried.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... rave-sites

In hindsight, the announcement of the results of the radar testing was made with a caveat. It was seen as a “preliminary” finding, yet the media and politicians ran with the story that mass graves were found at the site of a former residential school.

He noted that Sarah Beaulieu, the anthropologist who performed the initial radar testing, tried to rein in the media tsunami at a July 15, 2021 press conference.

“We need to pull back a little bit and say that they are ‘probable burials,’ they are ‘targets of interest,’ for sure,” Beaulieu had said, adding that the sites “have multiple signatures that present like burials,” but that “we do need to say that they are probable, until one excavates.”

So with all these reports, etc, what evidence is there of any mass graves. If there isn't "no evidence" then there must be some evidence that you're finding. A large number of unmarked single graves is not a mass grave. Is Sarah Beaulieu claiming that Ground Penetrating Radar suggests a mass grave at the site?

I see this now when I went to post.

I think most of the evidence of graves involves individual graves. There does seem to be some evidence of at least one mass grave, associated with pandemics.

Which one are you referring to?

Blue Quills is the one I was thinking of:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton ... -1.6457286

There may be others.

Thanks. It's unclear how many corpses were in this one grave but it's not unreasonable to call it a mass grave.

Obviously, there could be others. But you wouldn't want to assume that there might be until there's some evidence, right?

So am I right that you are saying that, as far as we know, the only evidence at this time for any mass graves is for a single grave at one school that contained multiple skeletons thought to be the result of a typhoid epidemic?

[Bootstrap]

So am I right that you are saying that, as far as we know, the only evidence at this time for any mass graves is for a single grave at one school that contained multiple skeletons thought to be the result of a typhoid epidemic?

I don't know - I haven't done the work. Perhaps you could?

I don't particularly care which of these 4,130 "Missing Children and Unmarked Burials" were buried in mass graves or just unmarked graves or whatever. If it's important to you, feel free to research what is known.

[ken_sylvania]

So am I right that you are saying that, as far as we know, the only evidence at this time for any mass graves is for a single grave at one school that contained multiple skeletons thought to be the result of a typhoid epidemic?

I don't know - I haven't done the work. Perhaps you could?

I don't particularly care which of these 4,130 "Missing Children and Unmarked Burials" were buried in mass graves or just unmarked graves or whatever. If it's important to you, feel free to research what is known.

My, that was an exhausting journey to get to "I'm not aware of evidence for multiple mass graves," wasn't it?

The difference between children being buried in unmarked graves vs. being buried in many, many mass graves is a huge difference. Especially when one takes the time to read information about various of the sites and finds out that the graves for others in the community who died were commonly unmarked as well.

What happened is a travesty, aided by a variety of people, some well-meaning, some not so much. Context and nuance matters though, and conflating mass graves with unmarked individual graves isn't at all helpful in forming an accurate picture of what went on.

[Bootstrap]

My, that was an exhausting journey to get to "I'm not aware of evidence for multiple mass graves," wasn't it?

What was wrong with my previous response?

Do you now no longer believe there is any credible evidence of any mass graves at any schools?

I think most of the evidence of graves involves individual graves. There does seem to be some evidence of at least one mass grave, associated with pandemics.

In general, these graves simply haven't been excavated yet. We will know more when we know more.

I thought that was adequate. I don't think the further exchanges added anything to that. To me, that's what made it so exhausting. I say something like this and get a cross examination. Or I agree that "mass graves" seems to have come from the media and get a cross examination.

Cross examinations are exhausting.