Outcomes of Overturning Roe Vs. Wade

[Szdfan]

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 banned the procedure that Josh is describing.

‘‘§ 1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited
Effective date.
‘‘(a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.

This law was upheld by the Supreme Court in 2007 in Gonzales v. Carhart.

So, this procedure has been banned for 21 years for elective abortions.

[temporal1]

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 banned the procedure that Josh is describing.

‘‘§ 1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited
Effective date.
‘‘(a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.

This law was upheld by the Supreme Court in 2007 in Gonzales v. Carhart.

So, this procedure has been banned for 21 years for elective abortions.

Szd,
i hope you are correct about this law, and that these late term murders do not happen. i’m unsure.
as well, i would think 20-30 weeks would be late term, removng the dramatic language of “moments before live birth” (altho, i expect there is legal use for such words). that is, to protect abortionists.

^^look at the underlined words above.
your quote appears to be confined to “out of state or country” practice .. i’ve read, Canada has quite a business dedicated to mothers flying in for international sex-selective abortions, some cultures value male babies to the point of killing females.
people murder for all manner poor reasons. your quote seems to be specific about crossing state and/or national borders.

nevertheless,
there can be no exaggeration about the INTENTIONAL FOR-PROFIT VIOLENCE involved.
abortion is the intention to kill human life, the kill rate is nearly 100%, any military would be green with envy.

manslaughter for spontaneous abortion?! (i forgive anyone who has not experienced one.)
spontaneous abortions happen. NOT intentional, NOT planned. NOT for profit.

if a comparison is required, i could accept comparison to HEART ATTACKS or STROKES.

also,
not to minimize, however, exploiting a few horrifying outcomes of “banned” abortions in order to open the floodgates to wholesale, at-will extermination of human life for convenience and profit - is always wrong - esp when there are many
ready alternatives to PREVENTION of pregnancy. resorting to abortion as “family planning” is wrong.

i’m 100% PRO-CHOICE. Choose before pregnancy.

unfortunately, even medical language can be exploited. “with the flick of a pen” doctors determine physical life+death.
some leading physicians believe abortion is not necessary to save a mother’s life. Caesarians are an alternative.
there are valid arguments.

there are questions of the mother’s mental health in addition to physical; mental health questions seriously get into the realm of the unknown. they are real! science isn’t yet good at knowing who-what-when-where.

when “the politics” always ends on the side of “death to the unborn” with “profits to corporations” i think dirty politics,
not the welfare of mothers and their unborn, are the question.

^^“always” is a clue. real life is rarely “always.”

[Josh]

Here is some helpful information for Szdfan:

- Murder is intentionally killing a human being, regardless of the age, race, status as an enslaved person, etc. of that human being. At various points in time, we have been told that some people aren’t actually human beings and it’s OK to intentionally kill them, such as slaves and babies.

- Manslaughter means performing a grossly negligent act that results in killing someone, like looking at your cell phone when driving, drifting off the road, and running over a pedestrian.

- A miscarriage is not manslaughter, obviously.

- States with abortion laws have had laws to recognise a need to preserve the life of the mother, such as a molar pregnancy. Claiming otherwise is alarmist.

- I do believe people should have a right to make their own health choices and what do with their own bodies, and should do so without fear of losing their rights, their jobs, or being allowed to go to school. However, those rights were taken away for people who refused a vaccine developed using aborted-baby parts. Thus, I conclude that abortion “rights” aren’t actually at all about the right to control people one’s own body or make one’s own medical decisions. In 2020 and 2021, the same people barking about abortion rights now said they wanted people like me to lose their jobs, have their children taken away, and be denied being part of society at all.

[Ken]

Here is some helpful information for Szdfan:

- Murder is intentionally killing a human being, regardless of the age, race, status as an enslaved person, etc. of that human being. At various points in time, we have been told that some people aren’t actually human beings and it’s OK to intentionally kill them, such as slaves and babies.

- Manslaughter means performing a grossly negligent act that results in killing someone, like looking at your cell phone when driving, drifting off the road, and running over a pedestrian.

- A miscarriage is not manslaughter, obviously.

- States with abortion laws have had laws to recognise a need to preserve the life of the mother, such as a molar pregnancy. Claiming otherwise is alarmist.

- I do believe people should have a right to make their own health choices and what do with their own bodies, and should do so without fear of losing their rights, their jobs, or being allowed to go to school. However, those rights were taken away for people who refused a vaccine developed using aborted-baby parts. Thus, I conclude that abortion “rights” aren’t actually at all about the right to control people one’s own body or make one’s own medical decisions. In 2020 and 2021, the same people barking about abortion rights now said they wanted people like me to lose their jobs, have their children taken away, and be denied being part of society at all.

Is a single microscopic cell a human being?

[temporal1]

From conception, there is no such thing as a single cell, however every human cell is God-created human life.

With modern science, including medical photography, everyone, including children, can see the incredible EXPLOSION OF INDIVIDUAL HUMAN LIFE that occurs at conception, and does not stop until death. Life is God-breathed, no matter stage of life.

Anyone looking at a newborn, waking or sleeping, esp in his first year, is witnessing an unbelievable feat of life+growth, preprogrammed by God. The responsibility of mother, father, community, is to nurture and protect the miracle - while he, the babe, does the lion’s share of work! Preprogrammed by God. Software included.

God trusts us with His creation. Are we worthy? Not always.

The science of life from conception to birth and after has all been documented now for decades. It remains incredible and breath-taking to witness. Science proving what was universally understood throughout history: humans give birth to humans.

Oddly, it’s common for many to revere monuments and geographical places as “sacred”. Very common.
Yet, no respect for new life??! At every stage?? This improbability is only possible in confines and twists of human reasoning.

Life's Greatest Miracle
Trace human development from embryo to newborn through the stunning microimagery of photographer Lennart Nilsson.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/lif ... t-miracle/

[Josh]

Is a single microscopic cell a human being?

Obviously. What else would it be?

[Ken]

Is a single microscopic cell a human being?

Obviously. What else would it be?

You kill thousands of human cells every time you scratch your nose or sneeze. Your body sheds about 50 billion human cells every day. Does that make you a mass murderer? Those cells have a nucleus with chromosomes, a cell membrane, organelles like mitochondria and ribosomes exactly like a human zygote. Genetically speaking they are identical to a human zygote with the same number of chromosomes and DNA. They can even be cloned and induced to reproduce.

Scientifically speaking (and I note we are big on science when it comes to defining male and female) there is no beginning to a human life. Life is not linear, it is a cycle. Every living cell including human zygotes come from the division of other living cells. Sperm and eggs are just as alive as a fertilized zygote. And they all came from the division of other living cells in an endless cycle back to the dawn of time.

So again, what makes a human zygote different from any other human body cell, or from sperm and egg cells for that matter? It is just a cell with a nucleus and DNA like any other. It has no tissue, no sensory organs, no nervous system, no brain cells. It is not self-aware. Functionally speaking it is no different from a protozoa. And about three fourths of them die naturally without any human intervention.

[Ernie]

Is a single microscopic cell a human being?

Obviously. What else would it be?

You kill thousands of human cells every time you scratch your nose or sneeze. Your body sheds about 50 billion human cells every day. Does that make you a mass murderer? Those cells have a nucleus with chromosomes, a cell membrane, organelles like mitochondria and ribosomes exactly like a human zygote. Genetically speaking they are identical to a human zygote with the same number of chromosomes and DNA. They can even be cloned and induced to reproduce.

Scientifically speaking (and I note we are big on science when it comes to defining male and female) there is no beginning to a human life. Life is not linear, it is a cycle. Every living cell including human zygotes come from the division of other living cells. Sperm and eggs are just as alive as a fertilized zygote. And they all came from the division of other living cells in an endless cycle back to the dawn of time.

So again, what makes a human zygote different from any other human body cell, or from sperm and egg cells for that matter? It is just a cell with a nucleus and DNA like any other. It has no tissue, no sensory organs, no nervous system, no brain cells. It is not self-aware. Functionally speaking it is no different from a protozoa. And about three fourths of them die naturally without any human intervention.

Is the difference that a human zygote often results in a human, while other types of cells do not?

[Ken]

Obviously. What else would it be?

You kill thousands of human cells every time you scratch your nose or sneeze. Your body sheds about 50 billion human cells every day. Does that make you a mass murderer? Those cells have a nucleus with chromosomes, a cell membrane, organelles like mitochondria and ribosomes exactly like a human zygote. Genetically speaking they are identical to a human zygote with the same number of chromosomes and DNA. They can even be cloned and induced to reproduce.

Scientifically speaking (and I note we are big on science when it comes to defining male and female) there is no beginning to a human life. Life is not linear, it is a cycle. Every living cell including human zygotes come from the division of other living cells. Sperm and eggs are just as alive as a fertilized zygote. And they all came from the division of other living cells in an endless cycle back to the dawn of time.

So again, what makes a human zygote different from any other human body cell, or from sperm and egg cells for that matter? It is just a cell with a nucleus and DNA like any other. It has no tissue, no sensory organs, no nervous system, no brain cells. It is not self-aware. Functionally speaking it is no different from a protozoa. And about three fourths of them die naturally without any human intervention.

Is the difference that a human zygote often results in a human, while other types of cells do not?

Sperm and egg cells can become human also. And somatic (body cell) cloning is now possible.

I don't have all the answers. I'm just pointing out that the notion that single cell human zygotes are uniquely human (while all other types of single human cells are not) is neither scientific nor Biblical. And adhering to such a belief leads us down some curious rabbit holes. For example, about 75% of all human zygotes perish naturally and are re-absorbed into the body or miscarried. Does that mean that 3/4 of the population of heaven is going to be single cell zygotes that have never experienced a human sensation, emotion, or thought? Is there any Biblical support for such a notion? I think not.

[Josh]

Ah, so what conveys personhood is having thoughts and emotions?

Is a severely mentally disabled individual not a human being? Are they just a clump of cells? Would it be OK to “terminate” them?

When does a human being become a human being, Ken?