How to keep the younger generation involved in farming...

[JohnH]

This is just my opinion but I think at least as much thought and effort should go into the question of creating Anabaptist communities that don't need the fragile combination of land, weather, cash crop and proximity as to making the agriculture system work in a world that increasingly doesn't need it.

Good point. We don't need farmers - just get your food at the grocery store.

You don’t need money to buy it either. Just swipe your EBT card.

[Anthony]

It might be illustrative to approach the question from the other way around, why was farming so pervasive 150 years ago. Some of the reasons are surely economic, as a society we have lowered the relative cost of food until the threat is more from obesity than hunger. When the settlers were ripping up the great plains to plant wheat it was because of economic incentives more than a desire to perpetuate a rustic lifestyle. One good harvest in that era was a fortune enough to pay for land or buy a house.

Another factor was the availability of land that one could hope to pay for relatively quickly. It's less enticing to sign up for hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt (or more) that will consume the rest of your life to pay off. Part of the reason Anabaptist farming flourished in PA, then western PA, then Ohio, then Indiana, then Iowa and also on the Russian steps was because land was being converted to a market commodity as the frontier extended and Native people were driven off. This cannot be replicate except in places like south America.

The land availability problem has another angle, high value crops like direct to market produce require land close to population density which makes it unaffordable. This explains why the Amish stayed with Tobacco as it is high value yet it stores and transports.

This is just my opinion but I think at least as much thought and effort should go into the question of creating Anabaptist communities that don't need the fragile combination of land, weather, cash crop and proximity as to making the agriculture system work in a world that increasingly doesn't need it.

Only other successful example is hasidic jews, who live primarily in urban areas. Not too sure how drift affects them though, i do know they are more accepting of technology than anabaptists

From my perspective, culture is their religion. I don't like that as a role model for people inclined to the kingdom of Jesus.

I see culture as a way of living out a worldview, their religion informs and totally eclipses everything they do, so it becomes a culture. Whats the problem with this? What do you think is a better alternative?

[ohio jones]

What percentage of the early Anabaptists in Europe do you suppose were farmers.

Depends how early you mean. Of the January 21 group, probably none. But soon after in Zollikon, nearly all.

The village inhabitants included at this time, as Bruppacher has shown, about 50 large farm owners and 40 small farm owners. Most of the Anabaptists belonged to the latter class, and some 30 of the 40 joined the movement. According to Blanke, from 22-29 January beginning the day after the founding of the Anabaptist brotherhood in the evening meeting in the home of Felix Manz in Zürich on 21 January the day on which the Zürich council proscribed Anabaptism, a total of 35 persons are known to have been baptized, 34 men and one woman, 30 of them independent peasants, and four hired hands.

[justme]

Its pretty easy as a crop farmer to coast along at the age of 70+ and keep farming. Young people will farm if older people give them the opportunity. Many people leave the family farm, because they are in their 20s and dad is only in his 50s and they want to make actual financial decisions and can't because Dad isn't going to let go until he is 70.

there is no plan for succession.
the younger generation is not being taught, they are not being given the opportunity to plan and do and reassess.

and not only in farming. in many aspects of life/work.

[Ernie]

The average age of farmers is on the increase.
See green and blue chart. https://www.terrainag.com/insights/issu ... n-farmers/

I wonder how this compares with Plain Anabaptists. It seems to me there is never enough farms. Does that result in the age being older as well. Or does migration to other areas make up for that.

Interestingly, only a small percentage of FFA members actually farm. https://jae-online.org/index.php/jae/ar ... /1098/1543

Anabaptists have not needed FFA to keep interest in farming. It is discussed at school, at family gatherings, at church, and on Sunday afternoons.

What percentage of the early Anabaptists in Europe do you suppose were farmers. Do you feel farming is somehow essential or that an important essence is lost with it.

OJ answered the first question.

I do not feel like farming is essential. Nobody in our church farms or even has a garden.
Yes, I do feel like something is lost if most people in the church do not get at least some experience in gardening. I think gardening helps us connect better with the Creator and with where our food comes from and with many scriptural truths. Fishing or hunting other than for sport can also help with some of this.

[barnhart]

The average age of farmers is on the increase.
See green and blue chart. https://www.terrainag.com/insights/issu ... n-farmers/

I wonder how this compares with Plain Anabaptists. It seems to me there is never enough farms. Does that result in the age being older as well. Or does migration to other areas make up for that.

Interestingly, only a small percentage of FFA members actually farm. https://jae-online.org/index.php/jae/ar ... /1098/1543

Anabaptists have not needed FFA to keep interest in farming. It is discussed at school, at family gatherings, at church, and on Sunday afternoons.

What percentage of the early Anabaptists in Europe do you suppose were farmers. Do you feel farming is somehow essential or that an important essence is lost with it.

OJ answered the first question.

I do not feel like farming is essential. Nobody in our church farms or even has a garden.
Yes, I do feel like something is lost if most people in the church do not get at least some experience in gardening. I think gardening helps us connect better with the Creator and with where our food comes from and with many scriptural truths. Fishing or hunting other than for sport can also help with some of this.

I don't have a problem with Anabaptists farming but I suspect more thought could go into creating communities where that don't need that as an economic and cultural base.

[JohnH]

I don't have a problem with Anabaptists farming but I suspect more thought could go into creating communities where that don't need that as an economic and cultural base.

Lots of thought has gone into creating all kinds of communities, but after a few generations we get to see what actually works. So far, there hasn't been much found outside of farming that doesn't tend to become transitional.

Some of the consequences of moving away from farming are:

- People have a lot less saved for retirement, since they can't sell their farm (and enjoy the appreciation on the land that goes along with that) to retire.
- This means nursing homes are much harder to fund.
- Children can't work on the family farm so they have to go find other professions, which often means moving away or needing to pursue higher education, which means being buried in large mounts of student-loan debt in many cases.
- The community stops having large amounts of land in one place, and gradually people drift to being an hour+ drive apart, which means there is far less community and people don't do much outside of Sunday church. This also often spells the doom of a church school and people shift to home schooling.
- Wednesday evening services, Sunday evening services, etc. also go the way of the do-do, particularly Wednesday evening because it isn't really compatible with a job that doesn't let out until 5 PM + a commute vs a farmer who can set his own schedule and usually is done a little earlier.
- People start commuting longer distances for jobs, which also impacts community.

In essence, the shift away from farming usually means adopting an American suburban lifestyle pattern, and I have a hard time being convinced that is a good thing.

[R7ehr]

The average age of farmers is on the increase.
See green and blue chart. https://www.terrainag.com/insights/issu ... n-farmers/

I wonder how this compares with Plain Anabaptists. It seems to me there is never enough farms. Does that result in the age being older as well. Or does migration to other areas make up for that.

Interestingly, only a small percentage of FFA members actually farm. https://jae-online.org/index.php/jae/ar ... /1098/1543

Anabaptists have not needed FFA to keep interest in farming. It is discussed at school, at family gatherings, at church, and on Sunday afternoons.

What percentage of the early Anabaptists in Europe do you suppose were farmers. Do you feel farming is somehow essential or that an important essence is lost with it.

OJ answered the first question.

I do not feel like farming is essential. Nobody in our church farms or even has a garden.
Yes, I do feel like something is lost if most people in the church do not get at least some experience in gardening. I think gardening helps us connect better with the Creator and with where our food comes from and with many scriptural truths. Fishing or hunting other than for sport can also help with some of this.

Maybe after ditching farming, and abandoning gardening, and forgetting how to can food, we should consider skipping cooking food at home soon. Just buy prepared meals.

My son was out of state working on a construction project, and he said that he can pay $9-13 (I don’t remember what the amount was) for the local lunch buffet, and so he figured that was the financial astute thing for him to do.

[Anthony]

I don't have a problem with Anabaptists farming but I suspect more thought could go into creating communities where that don't need that as an economic and cultural base.

Lots of thought has gone into creating all kinds of communities, but after a few generations we get to see what actually works. So far, there hasn't been much found outside of farming that doesn't tend to become transitional.

Some of the consequences of moving away from farming are:

- People have a lot less saved for retirement, since they can't sell their farm (and enjoy the appreciation on the land that goes along with that) to retire.
- This means nursing homes are much harder to fund.
- Children can't work on the family farm so they have to go find other professions, which often means moving away or needing to pursue higher education, which means being buried in large mounts of student-loan debt in many cases.
- The community stops having large amounts of land in one place, and gradually people drift to being an hour+ drive apart, which means there is far less community and people don't do much outside of Sunday church. This also often spells the doom of a church school and people shift to home schooling.
- Wednesday evening services, Sunday evening services, etc. also go the way of the do-do, particularly Wednesday evening because it isn't really compatible with a job that doesn't let out until 5 PM + a commute vs a farmer who can set his own schedule and usually is done a little earlier.
- People start commuting longer distances for jobs, which also impacts community.

In essence, the shift away from farming usually means adopting an American suburban lifestyle pattern, and I have a hard time being convinced that is a good thing.

This is true, i found it amusing my hasidic jewish example of successful community alternative was met with “well i dont like that”, then another request that people “should really be thinking about alternatives”.

Its clear the only successful long term anabaptist communties are very traditional ones based off farming or something as close to this as possible. Trade work is the second best option but still worse than farming. Working away from home is the biggest concern. It seems like this is the situation most churches are in due to farming unprofitability. Manufacturing/retail seems too unequal in terms of profit share and growth opportunities.

[Ernie]

Its clear the only successful long term anabaptist communties are very traditional ones based off farming or something as close to this as possible. Trade work is the second best option but still worse than farming. Working away from home is the biggest concern. It seems like this is the situation most churches are in due to farming unprofitability. Manufacturing/retail seems too unequal in terms of profit share and growth opportunities.

In many communities where people want to live as strangers and pilgrims and raise a second and third generation with the same values, the goal is to get out of the trades as soon as possible and run a small farm. They believe that small farms are a good place to raise a family and I agree.
My hypothesis is that “farming unprofitability” has more to do with a lack of creativity in knowing what products to produce and how to market them than with farming being unprofitable in this day and age.