USA / CANADA / vaccination / foreign nationals

[Ken]

We still can't bring a water bottle on an airplane, for example.

Of course you can. Bring the empty bottle through security, then fill it up at a drinking fountain with water that has been screened and approved by TSA.

Of course. Or buy the same Dasani water bottle at the airport concessions shop for 5x the price it would cost at Wal-Mart.

[Pelerin]

Lying about your vaccination status is incredibly easy to do.

You can tell them whatever you want, but I doubt they’re just going to let you in when you tell them that the dog ate your vaccine card.

[Ken]

Lying about your vaccination status is incredibly easy to do.

You can tell them whatever you want, but I doubt they’re just going to let you in when you tell them that the dog ate your vaccine card.

I lived through the pandemic like everyone else and in a state (Washington) that had more restrictive lockdowns and vaccine requirements than most (with corresponding lower death rates as well).

I can't count the number of times I saw people wave fake vaccine cards to get into restaurants or events. Or just share screen shots of fake vaccine verifications on their phones, or other people's cards. The bored clerks at the doors barely even glanced at what you show them on your phone for more than a nanosecond and wave you past.

As I understand the border process, you mostly sign an attestation to the effect that you are vaccinated and can present any sort of digital copy of a vaccine record or digital photo of a vaccine card. Which are incredibly easy to fake. I'm vaccinated and I have digital copies of all my vaccination records. It would be an incredibly trivial exercise to use photoshop to insert someone else's name instead of mine on all my digital vaccine records. I'm guessing that border agents only glance at that sort of documentation.

EDIT: Here is the actual list of acceptable forms of vaccination verification from the CDC web site that the US customs and immigration service accepts at the border. All but the very first of these would be trivially easy to fake since they don't even ask for original documents but accept any sort of digital printout or copy.



Of course it would be illegal to present fake vaccine documents when crossing a border. But no more illegal than actually crossing the border illegally which is what I sensed was being suggested.

[Josh]

Illegally crossing the border? Surely you would never tolerate that, Ken.

[Ernie]

But no more illegal than actually crossing the border illegally which is what I sensed was being suggested.

Who suggested this?

[Ken]

But no more illegal than actually crossing the border illegally which is what I sensed was being suggested.

Who suggested this?

Pelerin wrote:

I know a Canadian/American couple who were very adamant about not getting the vaccine. Somehow during the vaccine mandate, they ended up in Canada and I’ve wondered how “official” their border crossing was.

I just suggested it would be much easier just lie and generate a fake vaccine record which I expect hundreds of thousands of people have done rather than try to do some "unofficial" border crossing by which I assume was meant crossing someplace that wasn't an official border crossing. But of course you are breaking the law either way.

And no Josh, I'm not suggesting people do illegal border crossings. I'm suggesting they just get vaccinated. But if you are going to illegally cross the border without the required vaccine then it seems to me that the easier way would be to fake the vaccine record (in which some accepted types of documentation not even verifiable) rather than attempt to cross illegally at some unofficial location where there is no border control.

[Pelerin]

Yes, I suspected the crossing wasn’t on the up and up one way or another, but it’s possible they may have found a friendly border guard.

[Ken]

Yes, I suspected the crossing wasn’t on the up and up one way or another, but it’s possible they may have found a friendly border guard.

Well, even that is still illegal. It just means they didn't get caught. If I'm driving 70 in 50 zone and a friendly or lazy cop decides not to pull me over and give me a ticket. Does that mean I didn't break the law? It is not actually within the authority of a border guard to suspend or exempt people from the legal requirements for entry. It just means they are looking the other way while you break the law.

[Josh]

Yes, I suspected the crossing wasn’t on the up and up one way or another, but it’s possible they may have found a friendly border guard.

Well, even that is still illegal. It just means they didn't get caught. If I'm driving 70 in 50 zone and a friendly or lazy cop decides not to pull me over and give me a ticket. Does that mean I didn't break the law? It is not actually within the authority of a border guard to suspend or exempt people from the legal requirements for entry. It just means they are looking the other way while you break the law.

Strangely enough though it isn’t even within the authority of the President to suspend DACA which in turn was about suspending people from legal requirements to entry. I suppose the only authority left in America is a (liberal) judge in Hawai’i.

[Ken]

Yes, I suspected the crossing wasn’t on the up and up one way or another, but it’s possible they may have found a friendly border guard.

Well, even that is still illegal. It just means they didn't get caught. If I'm driving 70 in 50 zone and a friendly or lazy cop decides not to pull me over and give me a ticket. Does that mean I didn't break the law? It is not actually within the authority of a border guard to suspend or exempt people from the legal requirements for entry. It just means they are looking the other way while you break the law.

Strangely enough though it isn’t even within the authority of the President to suspend DACA which in turn was about suspending people from legal requirements to entry. I suppose the only authority left in America is a (liberal) judge in Hawai’i.

Not true. The obvious authority to suspend or modify any law is the authority that implemented it in the first place. Congress in the case of statutes, administrative agencies in the case of regulations, and the president in the case of executive orders.

In each of those cases there are established legal procedures to be followed. And in the case of administrative agencies, they have the power to act quickly on an emergency basis but such actions are always temporary and either expire or must be followed up by a more deliberative permanent action. There are also very clear lines of authority specifying who is authorized to take actions and who is not. With respect to entry into the US, the Secretary of Homeland Security can take administrative actions as can certain other people in the chain of command who are delegated that authority. But a border patrol agent cannot decide what the law should be for himself or herself.

There are also well established procedures and standards for things like administrative discretion but they should be applied fairly and generally. Whether you get arrested for breaking a law should not depend on the arbitrary mood or opinions of the officer you encounter. Otherwise you don't really have the rule of law.