Amish gun dealer

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ken_sylvania
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:04 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:48 pm
Ken wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:43 pm There just isn't enough information here in this article to know what kind of business he was running, except that of course it was illegitimate (unlicensed) and under-the-table or he wouldn't have been busted in the first place.
I hope that statement was intended to be a joke. The article doesn't even contain enough information for us to know that this was a business and not a hobby.

As was recently demonstrated again by the charges against Dr. Chen, the government doesn't necessarily wait until they know for sure whether a person is guilty before they arrest and jail him.

If a prospective juror stated during voir dire that he knows the accused is guilty, because otherwise the police wouldn't have made the arrest, he would almost certainly be disqualified as a juror.

The ATF isn't exactly known for being a highly professional agency.
The reporting was that he SOLD over 600 firearms. Not that he happened to have collected 600 weapons as a hobby. Obviously the reporting can be wrong but that is all we have to go with. He is being charged with selling firearms commercially without a license.

Yes, I know “innocent until proven guilty”. But we discuss crimes and the accused all the time here on this forum without waiting for trials or verdicts to have an opinion.
The Lancaster Online article that was linked doesn't say how many guns he SOLD. It does say that a tipster told that Mr. King either had or sold over 600 guns.

Can you quote the portion of the article that says he is being charged with selling firearms commercially without a license? I can't find it anywhere in the article having read it several times.
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steve-in-kville
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by steve-in-kville »

RZehr wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:47 pm
Have gun sales slowed?
Yes and no. It sorta goes in circles. Ammo is the same way. What was a $550 rifle two years ago is now maybe $650. Optics were in short supply there for a bit. Even the airgun industry took a spin and I heard crossbows and the like were booming last summer. I think I read that Pennsylvania had a record number of archery hunters last year.
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Ken
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by Ken »

ken_sylvania wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:56 amCan you quote the portion of the article that says he is being charged with selling firearms commercially without a license? I can't find it anywhere in the article having read it several times.
You have to put two and two together. I'm using the term "commercially" in the generic sense as in having to do with commerce or business. Not in some legal sense specifically related to firearms laws.

The first paragraph lays out the charges (or accusation) against him as he apparently hasn't yet been charged:
Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seized firearms from a Leacock Township property earlier this month and an Amish farmer at the property acknowledged selling guns without a federal firearms license.
The latter half of the article describes under what circumstances a license is required. Namely the selling of firearms for business or profit (i.e. commercially).
A 15-page document posted to the bureau’s site and titled, “Do I need a license to buy and sell firearms?” states that the federal Gun Control Act “requires that persons who are engaged in the business of dealing in firearms be licensed by the bureau.”

“Determining whether you are ‘engaged in the business’ of dealing in firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of your activities,” the document said, noting no federal law sets a “‘bright-line’ rule for when a federal firearms license is required.”

The ATF document says a person “will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit.” Licenses are not required for someone who engages in “occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection,” the document added.

Anyone who “willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution, and can be sentenced to up to five years in prison, fined up to $250,000, or both,” the document said.
If Federal attorneys decline to prosecute and they apologize and give him back all his guns then we will know that they were mistaken.

On the other hand, if they decide to proceed with a trial or much more likely, some sort of plea agreement and settlement of the case then we will know the opposite is true. That they do have a case against him for illegally selling firearms without a license. They will likely follow the money and if this activity was a source of business income then he will likely have been in violation of the law.

Often in cases like this when they start pulling at threads they find new charges such as tax evasion if there was undeclared income involved. If he was earning say $25K or $50K a year from under-the-table firearms sales and not declaring the income then he may be more in trouble with the IRS than the ATF. But that is all just speculation. We will know what kind of case they have against him, if any, when the time comes and charges are filed. And they will have to fish or cut bait. They can't just seize his weapons and keep them forever. They have to proceed with charges or give them back.
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Josh
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:16 pmWell yes, I would imagine the circumstances and economics are different for Amish as they aren't likely to drive a buggy 20 miles to a giant suburban Wal-Mart at some big freeway interchange that requires freeway access, just to find cheaper glassware. So the little local stores make sense as they have a captive market based on the geographic range of their modes of transportation.
Right - they just hire a driver to do so and then pick up 5 or 10 of their cousins on the way for a big shopping trip.
As far as guns go, my understanding is that a lot of the big sporting goods stores like Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, or Sportsman's Warehouse (our big equivalent chain in the Pacific Northwest) the firearms are something of a loss leader to get people into the stores. Everyone (or at least most gun folks) know exactly the price of a Winchester Model 70 bolt-action rifle, or a Glock 9 mm. So they can't really mark those way up. But once in the store with all the other stuff they load up on clothing and other accessories and that is where they make their money. On the flannel shirt they sell for $65 that costs $4 to produce. That sort of thing.
In case you didn't read the original article, most Amish don't believe in having photographs of themselves nor have photo IDs, so they cannot buy firearms from their traditional retail channels. They have to depend on private-party sales (which are perfectly legal).
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Josh
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:50 amIf Federal attorneys decline to prosecute and they apologize and give him back all his guns then we will know that they were mistaken.
Or... they just don't. Prosecutors and police do this all the time. For example, Rittenhouse remains unconvicted of any crimes, but his weapons have yet to be returned to him. He recently filed a lawsuit to get them back.
They can't just seize his weapons and keep them forever. They have to proceed with charges or give them back.
lol, your level of trust in the ATF is charming
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Ken
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:17 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:50 amIf Federal attorneys decline to prosecute and they apologize and give him back all his guns then we will know that they were mistaken.
Or... they just don't. Prosecutors and police do this all the time. For example, Rittenhouse remains unconvicted of any crimes, but his weapons have yet to be returned to him. He recently filed a lawsuit to get them back.
They can't just seize his weapons and keep them forever. They have to proceed with charges or give them back.
lol, your level of trust in the ATF is charming
Actually Rittenhouse requested that his rifle be destroyed which the court agreed to. He is getting everything else back: https://www.chronicleonline.com/news/na ... 8c7b4.html
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:50 am
ken_sylvania wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:56 amCan you quote the portion of the article that says he is being charged with selling firearms commercially without a license? I can't find it anywhere in the article having read it several times.
You have to put two and two together. I'm using the term "commercially" in the generic sense as in having to do with commerce or business. Not in some legal sense specifically related to firearms laws.
That doesn't make any sense. You used the term "commercially" in the context of statement saying he had been charged with "selling firearms commercially."
Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:50 am The first paragraph lays out the charges (or accusation) against him as he apparently hasn't yet been charged:
Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seized firearms from a Leacock Township property earlier this month and an Amish farmer at the property acknowledged selling guns without a federal firearms license.
The latter half of the article describes under what circumstances a license is required. Namely the selling of firearms for business or profit (i.e. commercially).
A 15-page document posted to the bureau’s site and titled, “Do I need a license to buy and sell firearms?” states that the federal Gun Control Act “requires that persons who are engaged in the business of dealing in firearms be licensed by the bureau.”

“Determining whether you are ‘engaged in the business’ of dealing in firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of your activities,” the document said, noting no federal law sets a “‘bright-line’ rule for when a federal firearms license is required.”

The ATF document says a person “will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit.” Licenses are not required for someone who engages in “occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection,” the document added.

Anyone who “willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution, and can be sentenced to up to five years in prison, fined up to $250,000, or both,” the document said.
If Federal attorneys decline to prosecute and they apologize and give him back all his guns then we will know that they were mistaken.

On the other hand, if they decide to proceed with a trial or much more likely, some sort of plea agreement and settlement of the case then we will know the opposite is true. That they do have a case against him for illegally selling firearms without a license. They will likely follow the money and if this activity was a source of business income then he will likely have been in violation of the law.

Often in cases like this when they start pulling at threads they find new charges such as tax evasion if there was undeclared income involved. If he was earning say $25K or $50K a year from under-the-table firearms sales and not declaring the income then he may be more in trouble with the IRS than the ATF. But that is all just speculation. We will know what kind of case they have against him, if any, when the time comes and charges are filed. And they will have to fish or cut bait. They can't just seize his weapons and keep them forever. They have to proceed with charges or give them back.
So according to the article the ATF is investigating but hasn't even accused the man of anything yet. King says he sold firearms and that he didn't have a license, but unless he was doing it as a business it doesn't seem as if there's anything illegal about it. And the first paragraph of the article doesn't even say he did anything wrong.

Even if King pleads out or settles the case, we won't know whether he actually did anything illegal. It costs a lot of money to get justice in court and he may decide he can't afford to fight the charges even if he is not guilty.
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ragpicker
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by ragpicker »

Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:08 pm
Josh wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:17 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:50 amIf Federal attorneys decline to prosecute and they apologize and give him back all his guns then we will know that they were mistaken.
Or... they just don't. Prosecutors and police do this all the time. For example, Rittenhouse remains unconvicted of any crimes, but his weapons have yet to be returned to him. He recently filed a lawsuit to get them back.
They can't just seize his weapons and keep them forever. They have to proceed with charges or give them back.
lol, your level of trust in the ATF is charming
Actually Rittenhouse requested that his rifle be destroyed which the court agreed to. He is getting everything else back: https://www.chronicleonline.com/news/na ... 8c7b4.html
Did he, or did he not, file to get legal possession of his rifle?
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by Ken »

ragpicker wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:46 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:08 pm
Josh wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:17 pm

Or... they just don't. Prosecutors and police do this all the time. For example, Rittenhouse remains unconvicted of any crimes, but his weapons have yet to be returned to him. He recently filed a lawsuit to get them back.



lol, your level of trust in the ATF is charming
Actually Rittenhouse requested that his rifle be destroyed which the court agreed to. He is getting everything else back: https://www.chronicleonline.com/news/na ... 8c7b4.html
Did he, or did he not, file to get legal possession of his rifle?
The circumstances were somewhat different from this case. Rittenhouse's rifle was material evidence in a murder trial. He faces civil charges for the same event, and there was the potential that he also could have faced Federal charges although it doesn't seem like the DOJ is interested in that. So there is going to be a formal legal process to determine the disposal of evidence in a case like this. Furthermore, Kyle Rittenhouse did not file a lawsuit to get his rifle back as Josh suggested upstream. He did not sue anyone. His attorney simply filed a motion asking the court to return his possessions. That just means putting the request in writing and filing it with the clerk of that particular court. The judge considered the motion, asked to hear oral arguments from the parties involved, and then granted it. Pretty routine.
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Josh
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Re: Amish gun dealer

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:08 pm
Josh wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:17 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:50 amIf Federal attorneys decline to prosecute and they apologize and give him back all his guns then we will know that they were mistaken.
Or... they just don't. Prosecutors and police do this all the time. For example, Rittenhouse remains unconvicted of any crimes, but his weapons have yet to be returned to him. He recently filed a lawsuit to get them back.
They can't just seize his weapons and keep them forever. They have to proceed with charges or give them back.
lol, your level of trust in the ATF is charming
Actually Rittenhouse requested that his rifle be destroyed which the court agreed to. He is getting everything else back: https://www.chronicleonline.com/news/na ... 8c7b4.html
He specifically requested it back so he could be sure it was destroyed.

Do you ever not twist words?
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