Biblical Justice, Social Justice, Black Lives Matter

[Wade]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

[joshuabgood]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

Also there is useful things like Mennonet.

[Bootstrap]

No takers? Or did someone answer this?

I would appreciate a serious biblical discussion from people who keep suggesting I have misunderstood the Bible. So far, I hear mostly an argument from silence, that when Jesus or the apostles stood up against someone to protect someone else, it was not the government. The apostles did stand up against the government to continue preaching the Gospel, Paul stood up against Peter on behalf of the Gentiles, Paul stood up to the government and invoked his Roman citizenship to avoid being tortured, but we don't have New Testament examples of protests on the behalf of others.

We do have Old Testament examples, of course. The Old Testament prophets did precisely that kind of thing.

I'm extremely sympathetic to the argument that we need to focus on the core of the Gospel and the way we live our lives, and that these other things can be a distraction. Still, I find standing up for refugees, for instance, to be clearly important to God in the Old Testament.

If it's a biblical argument, I assume that people who are fundamentally against protest would make the same argument about 2nd Amendment protest, right-to-life protest, and protesting on behalf of victims of violence or torture, and would either be silent about all of these or speak out against all of these in the same way. Is that the way you view it?

And what exactly is the biblical argument here?

Could someone help me understand the biblical argument against standing up against injustice?

I'm trying to follow the biblical argument here.

In the Old Testament, prophets frequently sought justice on behalf of other people. Think of Nathan confronting King David. A lot of the prophets confronted kings on behalf of the poor. Of course, that didn't always work out well for the prophet, kings have a lot of power, but confronting authorities on behalf of the poor and the oppressed was a significant part of what Old Testament prophets did. The other two major themes were whoring after other gods and general sinfulness. Together, those three themes define much of what Old Testament prophets talked about.

Jesus protected the woman caught in adultery from being stoned and intervened on behalf of various people who were looked down on in their society. Paul boldly confronted Peter on behalf of the Gentiles. In the New Testament, when apostles stood up to authorities, it was generally on behalf of the Gospel. Paul also used his status as a Roman citizen to avoid being mistreated by Roman authorities, the apostles ignored commands to not preach the Gospel. But I don't see a prohibition of doing that kind of thing on behalf of someone who is oppressed or a victim of injustice. I also don't see any indication that this was something they did much.

I see real danger of being distracted from the Gospel itself when we get involved in political causes, and I think it is also important to consider how we get involved. But I think that same danger is present on either side of these issues. If your main point was that you don't want to get involved on either side of worldly politics or that you want to avoid unintentionally supporting ugly factions on any side of this issue, I would understand that. To me, it can sometimes feel like some people want to strongly denounce people who are standing up for the rights of others and implying that they have nothing to be upset about. Or even denouncing black people in America with ugly stereotypes. That's just as politically involved.

I know people who think of Christians as haters. A lot of that comes from politically entangled, emotional denunciations that imply some people have no value or should be silenced. And I have heard that from Christians too. I certainly understand Christians who simply want to refrain from all worldly politics, not getting involved in these issues at all. Personally, I am trying to understand whether and how I should be involved. I suspect there may be a way. I don't know what it is. So far, it's leading a Bible study that is very close to the text.

[RZehr]

It is a fine difference between standing up or speaking against injustice, and standing up or speaking for rights.
And maybe many/most they are really intertwined.
However, I think the bulk of protest, from union strikes to BLM, by and large protests are primarily about standing up for ones rights. If that is the case, we would mostly see the union members and black people protesting, and not so much non-union members and white people. So the question is, why are white people populating BLM protests? Obviously there are as many reasons as there are people. Giving the political climate, the popularity of the movement, the social media spotlight, I think it is fair to wonder how much these factors are at play for white people, besides a sense of injustice.

As I've said before, conservative Mennonites have an underdog sensibility. With a heritage of persecution and fleeing which is taught in our schools, we identify with minorities because we are a minority. Justice is not something that a powerless minority grants to others. Justice is something that the powerful grants to the powerless. We are part of the powerless. Therefore, we spend our energies on how to be a powerless minority withing the Biblical framework. And we see that the answer to that question is to turn the other cheek, to bear one anothers burdens, to not be surprised when the world hates and persecutes and mistreats us. And so when the powerful systems of the world mistreat black people, we say to them, come join us. The world hates us too, and the Bible has instructions on how we handle this. We have no part of the powerful governments, except as ambassadors.

This sense of self identity is key to understand why plain Mennonites don't protest.
Why do we see liberal Mennonites protesting? I am happy to let you speak for yourself. But I can't help but think at least a small part is because you view yourself as able to effect change. And to be able to effect change, one has to have some "power". You view yourself as helping the ones that need help, and not the helpless. Your white identity is stronger than your powerless minority identity.

[Ken]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

You can't even apply to most jobs these days without using the internet. At least most jobs offered by any larger organization.

[Wade]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

You can't even apply to most jobs these days without using the internet. At least most jobs offered by any larger organization.

I tried getting a black bear tag this spring as we often have bear problems in our yard. With COVID19 the government building was shut down - I called and they could not help me. Stores I tried were sold out. After many email attempts I was finally just giving a website link to figure out where I could purchase my tag. It showed up a week later - so imagine that, even hillbillies can't go hunting anymore without using the internet...

[Soloist]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

You can't even apply to most jobs these days without using the internet. At least most jobs offered by any larger organization.

I tried getting a black bear tag this spring as we often have bear problems in our yard. With COVID19 the government building was shut down - I called and they could not help me. Stores I tried were sold out. After many email attempts I was finally just giving a website link to figure out where I could purchase my tag. It showed up a week later - so imagine that, even hillbillies can't go hunting anymore without using the internet...

I found my current job through the internet... Most Mennonites I know that do not use the internet would not encourage someone to pursue my line of work. One group I know, a few of their members gave up the pesticide permit because it was getting too hard to maintain it without the internet being used. Even the classes they went to just ended up using the internet based class after showing up to a computer lab.
These people are going to be the new Amish that are terribly hard to join and look very strange to others. You can't hardly imagine not using the internet even though it hasn't been around much longer than 25-30 years in regular use.
My church has a stance against home use and I expect at some point that to fall.
The churches that have not used internet hardly even know the rules for the covid lockdowns and they are not swayed in the wind as easily as we are by politics and international events. I'm jealous of that but I would struggle quite a lot with it. I grew up with the internet from a very young age. My church school doesn't even have computers until the children are 14 or 15 for use and we only go to 10th grade. I think that the upbringing I had with the computer and internet was detrimental to me. The only limiting factor on what I truly want for my children is my own upbringing and my wife.

[Bootstrap]

Thanks for a serious, reflective answer to my question.

It is a fine difference between standing up or speaking against injustice, and standing up or speaking for rights.
And maybe many/most they are really intertwined.

I think so, at least in many cases. For instance, when Nathan spoke to David, was he protesting the violation of Uriah and Bathsheba's rights, or injustice, or unrighteousness? Can they be usefully distinguished?

However, I think the bulk of protest, from union strikes to BLM, by and large protests are primarily about standing up for ones rights. If that is the case, we would mostly see the union members and black people protesting, and not so much non-union members and white people. So the question is, why are white people populating BLM protests? Obviously there are as many reasons as there are people. Giving the political climate, the popularity of the movement, the social media spotlight, I think it is fair to wonder how much these factors are at play for white people, besides a sense of injustice.

The only two issues I have been involved in protest for were (1) protecting unborn children and (2) protesting pornography paid for with student fees at the college I went to. Neither of these was about me standing up for my rights. And I haven't been involved in any protest since the very early 1980s.

As I've said before, conservative Mennonites have an underdog sensibility. With a heritage of persecution and fleeing which is taught in our schools, we identify with minorities because we are a minority. Justice is not something that a powerless minority grants to others. Justice is something that the powerful grants to the powerless. We are part of the powerless. Therefore, we spend our energies on how to be a powerless minority within the Biblical framework. And we see that the answer to that question is to turn the other cheek, to bear one another's burdens, to not be surprised when the world hates and persecutes and mistreats us. And so when the powerful systems of the world mistreat black people, we say to them, come join us. The world hates us too, and the Bible has instructions on how we handle this. We have no part of the powerful governments, except as ambassadors.

This sense of self-identity is key to understand why plain Mennonites don't protest.

Thanks, that's helpful. And I have a lot of sympathy for the kind of position you describe above.

But sometimes I see plain Mennonites go way beyond that, bordering on implying that protest is a gross sin, and sometimes taking strong stances for the other side and against the protesters. To me, this can sometimes look like advocating for the rich and powerful against the powerless. Which is quite different from simply not taking sides or not getting involved - people can sometimes have very strong feelings and be judgy about people who disagree. And recently, I thought I heard someone say that the Bible was completely against protests.

I realize that MN is not representative of plain Mennodom, of course, but I see some of this on Facebook pages of people who are clearly plain Mennos too. I have no idea how many plain Mennos are like this.

Why do we see liberal Mennonites protesting? I am happy to let you speak for yourself. But I can't help but think at least a small part is because you view yourself as able to effect change. And to be able to effect change, one has to have some "power". You view yourself as helping the ones that need help, and not the helpless.

I'm not protesting, actually, I'm not encouraging people to protest, and if you look at my Facebook feed, you won't find much about anything political. But I do advocate here on MN. And I suppose I do think I have some power to effect change.

In real life I am more inclined to find ways to show love that also symbolize what I think is right. Yesterday, I brought a meal and groceries to an apartment where a refugee family of 7 from Afghanistan was arriving. I don't like to be part of angry crowds and I want to be careful about the message I am portraying. I don't think press releases and Facebook campaigns are really where I need to be.

On the other hand, I am unlikely to condemn peaceful protesters for expressing their views, and I am outraged when violence is used against protests that are peaceful. I think that has a lot to do with my understanding of democracy - the people need to have the right to come together and express themselves. And on the whole, I think democracy has been good for Christians in America. We have the right to be different and to speak out. We need that right.

For the most part, I don't think the New Testament gives clear guidelines on this kind of thing. There's a part of me that identifies with Old Testament prophets speaking out in the face of injustice.

[Josh]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

You can't even apply to most jobs these days without using the internet. At least most jobs offered by any larger organization.

Yet plain Amish and non Internet using Mennonites have full employment, often much more so than their Internet-using neighbours.

[Ken]

The reason why not all ban the internet is because it can be used as a useful tool and at times necessary to preform simple tasks, like pull permits if you are an electrician. That is why some CA's have internet but always with filters.

You can't even apply to most jobs these days without using the internet. At least most jobs offered by any larger organization.

Yet plain Amish and non Internet using Mennonites have full employment, often much more so than their Internet-using neighbours.

I seriously doubt that. I don't think being Amish or conservative Mennonite excludes one from economic reality. I'm sure there are plenty who have lost jobs in this pandemic. And also plenty who are severely underemployed relative to what they would want to be.