Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

That really is like claiming a rapist and a woman who was raped are on the same ground morally. Yes, they were both participants in a rape, but they were not doing the same thing, there is a huge difference in their moral culpability even if she fought back. The same holds for a country that manages to get itself invaded by an authoritarian leader trying to restore a former empire by military force. It did not choose to get invaded.

Do you have any commentary, then, on the people of Donetsk and Luhansk and their desire not to deal with attacks from neo-Nazis who are part of the Ukranian National Guard?

Propaganda is often a tool of war. I don't think we can trust Russia's reports on these things - Putin was clearly looking for any excuse he could manufacture to invade. And look, if that was his real concern, why not limit himself to Donetsk and Luhansk? Was this happening in Kyiv?

This is the kind of thing that an international investigation could take a look at if real evidence can be produced. It's best investigated by countries who do not plan to invade and take over their neighbors.

I think this is worth listening to:

The Information War in Ukraine

Over the last several weeks, Russian aggression toward Ukraine has escalated dramatically. Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on Feb. 21 that Russia would recognize the sovereignty of two breakaway regions in Ukraine’s east, Donetsk and Luhansk, whose years-long effort to secede from Ukraine has been engineered by Russia. Russian troops have entered eastern Ukraine as supposed “peacekeepers,” and the Russian military has taken up positions along a broad stretch of Ukraine’s border.

Along with the military dimensions of the crisis, there’s also the question of how various actors are using information to provoke or defuse violence. Russia has been spreading disinformation about supposed violence against ethnic Russians in Ukraine. The United States and its Western partners, meanwhile, have been releasing intelligence about Russia’s plans—and about Russian disinformation—at a rapid and maybe even unprecedented clip.

So today on Arbiters of Truth, our series on the online information ecosystem, we’re bringing you an episode about the role of truth and falsehoods in the Russian attack on Ukraine. Evelyn Douek and Quinta Jurecic spoke with Olga Lautman, a non-resident senior fellow at the Center for European Policy Analysis—who has been tracking Russian disinformation in Ukraine—and Shane Harris, a reporter at the Washington Post—who has been reporting on the crisis.

[Ken]

That really is like claiming a rapist and a woman who was raped are on the same ground morally. Yes, they were both participants in a rape, but they were not doing the same thing, there is a huge difference in their moral culpability even if she fought back. The same holds for a country that manages to get itself invaded by an authoritarian leader trying to restore a former empire by military force. It did not choose to get invaded.

Do you have any commentary, then, on the people of Donetsk and Luhansk and their desire not to deal with attacks from neo-Nazis who are part of the Ukranian National Guard?

Yes, maybe you should stop consuming Russian propaganda.

To expand. Every western military on the planet (except one) has extreme right neo-Nazi elements contained within it. The US obviously does as was on full display on January 6th and in various other neo-Nazi protests like at Charlottesville where plenty of neo Nazi active duty and retired military showed up.

They require weeding out yes. And it is a job every military needs to do. But that doesn't mean we invade sovereign nations. We aren't going to invade France because some of their troops are right-wing neo-Nazi types. Which they are. As for Ukraine. Russian propagandists have been busy disseminating this meme for years. To the point of pushing out all variety of fake photos showing swastikas on helmets and such. This has been well documented. So I would view any claims by Russia of "Nazi" atrocities in Ukraine with an enormous grain of salt. They are most likely lies.

Russia is engaged in war crimes by engaging in an expansionist war of aggression. There isn't any other 'yes...but Nazis" nonsense to be said.

This is your Ukrainian Nazi leader right here.

[Szdfan]

How wonderful to be able to chose to live in the peace of God. I have no concern that whatever happens it will be something that God allows to happen as He is omnipotent. I just need to trust that He allows what He allows to happen for His purposes. I can rest in that.

I don’t disagree with this, but it’s a lot easier to proclaim the peace and goodness of God when you’re not the target of rocket attacks or invasion.

[RZehr]

Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot.

Why can’t the country being attacked, simply surrender?
Wouldn’t that be in their control? I don’t know that it is correct to say that the attacker is the only one who controls when peace breaks out. It takes two to fight.

But would they be safe and secure as a result? Would this really end the killing, or would Russia then start killing anyone they deem suspicious? Would Putin try to wipe out Ukranian national identity and ethnic identity and language in order to try to make everyone Russian as his rhetoric implies he might?

And do you really want to imply that the aggressor is no more guilty than the country they attack if the country does not immediately surrender to avoid war?

The only implication being made, was you saying the only way to end the war is for Russia to withdraw. While I agree that is the most sane thing that should happen, it isn’t the only way to end the violence. It takes two to fight. Just like with children.

What would Putin do if Ukraine surrendered? Who knows?
I’m not sure where you get the idea that the defending country is more guilty than the attacking country, that seems sort of an odd position to take.

[ohio jones]

I've never heard of this in warfare before. Is this something that has been done frequently?

Ukraine is offering Russian soldiers cash to stop fighting in a Kremlin-ordered invasion of the country.

“We offer Russian soldiers a choice: to die in an unjust war or a full amnesty and 5 million rubles in compensation. If they lay down their arms and surrender voluntarily,” Ukrainian Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov said in a statement posted to the department’s Twitter account.

For context, 5 million rubles is (at today's somewhat depressed exchange rate) about $50k.

I wonder what the terms are aside from the money. It doesn't seem they'd be welcome back in Russia, and Ukraine seems a little iffy for now unless they get enough takers.

[temporal1]

I've never heard of this in warfare before. Is this something that has been done frequently?

Ukraine is offering Russian soldiers cash to stop fighting in a Kremlin-ordered invasion of the country.

“We offer Russian soldiers a choice: to die in an unjust war or a full amnesty and 5 million rubles in compensation. If they lay down their arms and surrender voluntarily,” Ukrainian Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov said in a statement posted to the department’s Twitter account.

For context, 5 million rubles is (at today's somewhat depressed exchange rate) about $50k.

I wonder what the terms are aside from the money.
It doesn't seem they'd be welcome back in Russia, and Ukraine seems a little iffy for now unless they get enough takers.

Asylum for defectors is not new.
If Ukraine does not prevail, defectors, and those aiding would expect the worst punishments.

Possibly the closest comparison would be North Koreans defecting, mostly to South Korea.
Even there, i’m not sure “frequently” would describe it. The Olympic Games sometimes has incidents of defectors.
It’s an extreme life decision.

It’s like a civil war, brothers fighting brothers, cousins fighting cousins. People with hard lives fighting people with hard lives.

i’m not surprised if this is happening, i.e., cash. The stakes would be very high, for life. With solid terms, as oj says.

Also, with Ukraine recruiting “everyone” as has been reported, defectors might be expected to lay down arms for Russia, but pick them up for Ukraine. From the little i’ve seen, fighting is the spirit that’s led+promoted in Ukraine, including all ages, men, women, children. It appears thorough. For the best reasons.

[temporal1]

NATO’s complicity leading up to and response merits sober consideration.

I'm curious what you think NATO is complicit of.

Acting like a bunch of thugs and warlords, for one.

On page 15, i posted an opinion of someone living in NW Europe.
i think what he describes about how NATO has operated over years deserves consideration, even investigation.
i found a link to a Military Times article that supported what he was saying about NATO’s presence on borders.

Later he said, “If NATO removed their weapons of mass destruction” from borders, Russia might just leave Ukraine.

i suppose he may be saying this is a Russia/NATO conflict, Ukraine just happens to be “the spot.” “The name.”
He doesn’t see NATO as an innocent bystander, nor a faultless savior. This leads me to wonder, IF Ukraine decided not to fight, would NATO allow it? NATO is 100% invested in fighting.

Propaganda always reduces every conflict to raw, black+white terms. That’s a power play. This is no exception.

He compared this situation as a recreation of the Cuban missile crisis, and does not believe it’s spontaneous.
i was young, but the tensions during the Cuba situation were the worst i ever experienced, worse than Vietnam (for U.S. civilians).
His ideas seem credible to me. Worth sober consideration.

Even in 1962, i did not witness crowds gathering, cheering for war. As i recall, still going to school, there was extreme SILENCE.
It was as if birds stopped chirping. No barking dogs. People waiting, wondering, FEARING. Parents thought about keeping their children home, “in case” .. .. as a child, i was sheltered. No cheap 24/7 news. But i sensed the tension, and silence. Fear.

i can imagine lots of people in Europe see these things ‘way differently than mainstream U.S. press reports.

When thinking is black+white, as some on this forum are strongly promoting, the probability of being sold on propaganda is high.

[mike]

I wonder what short-term impact this will have.

[temporal1]

mike:
I wonder what short-term impact this will have.

i’m pretty sure it removes the possibility that Ukraine might choose non-resistance. they wouldn’t be allowed.
i’m afraid Ukraine, country+population, may find itself a useful pawn in bigger wars.

[Josh]

mike:
I wonder what short-term impact this will have.

i’m pretty sure it removes the possibility that Ukraine might choose non-resistance. they wouldn’t be allowed.
i’m afraid Ukraine, country+population, may find itself a useful pawn in bigger wars.

Ukraine has been a very warlike country, particularly their bad habit of letting their National Guard shell Donetsk and Luhansk and looking the other way. Of course, they claim this is “antiterrorism”, as of killing 10-20 civilians a day is somehow peaceful.