Haiti Kidnapping

[Ken]

The CT article that someone above linked correctly points out that Haiti is more dangerous than a lot of these organizations realized. I am sympathetic to the emotions of finding that out after your loved ones are kidnapped.

However, this whole thing really smacks of inequality and American / Anabaptist exceptionalism. As you aptly point out, there have been 100s of kidnappings in Haiti this year. Why did we hear nothing of them until it was westerners.

Why do they deserve to have their ransom paid and to get out alive, just because they are associated with people (supports) and organizations (CAM) with extraordinary means? Doesn't seem very just to me.

I expect that most of the extended families and the churches of the folks involved could probably raise the money themselves without help of CAM or the government or any other organization. A couple of second mortgages, some HELOC funds, etc. We aren't talking about absolutely enormous sums, especially to the extend that they get bargained down.

It's not about "deserving" to have their ransom paid. It is about whether or not the families have the resources to do it. Just like any other expensive life or death situation like need for a bone marrow transplant. If your child needs one you don't wring your hands worrying about whether they "deserve" it. You do what you need to in order to make it happen.

They want $17m...

Which is $1 million per person. Chop it in half which is what this gang reportedly ended up accepting for other western hostages and priests that they kidnapped and you are down to $500,000 per person. Which is something that I expect most of these extended families and churches could raise. Take a second mortgage out on the farm or house, etc. If it were my wife or child down there I'd be figuring out how to get them home. I assume these families are doing the same whether we hear about it on the news or not.

[Josh]

Which is $1 million per person. Chop it in half which is what this gang reportedly ended up accepting for other western hostages and priests that they kidnapped and you are down to $500,000 per person. Which is something that I expect most of these extended families and churches could raise. Take a second mortgage out on the farm or house, etc. If it were my wife or child down there I'd be figuring out how to get them home. I assume these families are doing the same whether we hear about it on the news or not.

I'll repeat myself:

The purpose of mission activity is not to hand over $8.5 million to a violent criminal organisation which will then use those funds to go and kidnap other people. And the governments involved probably don't want those criminals well funded either.

Of course I want these people to come home (or stay in Haiti, after all, they all went there as missionaries this year) -- but truckloads of cash does not always solve everything. Might even make it worse.

Imagine your HELOC application: "I'm taking this cash out to pay a bunch of violent criminals." That might even be illegal under KYC banking regs in the U.S., you generally can't take out money in order to engage in an illegal act.

[Ken]

Which is $1 million per person. Chop it in half which is what this gang reportedly ended up accepting for other western hostages and priests that they kidnapped and you are down to $500,000 per person. Which is something that I expect most of these extended families and churches could raise. Take a second mortgage out on the farm or house, etc. If it were my wife or child down there I'd be figuring out how to get them home. I assume these families are doing the same whether we hear about it on the news or not.

I'll repeat myself:

The purpose of mission activity is not to hand over $8.5 million to a violent criminal organisation which will then use those funds to go and kidnap other people. And the governments involved probably don't want those criminals well funded either.

Of course I want these people to come home (or stay in Haiti, after all, they all went there as missionaries this year) -- but truckloads of cash does not always solve everything. Might even make it worse.

Imagine your HELOC application: "I'm taking this cash out to pay a bunch of violent criminals." That might even be illegal under KYC banking regs in the U.S., you generally can't take out money in order to engage in an illegal act.

I expect we will know soon enough which one of us is right.

[nett]

I expect that most of the extended families and the churches of the folks involved could probably raise the money themselves without help of CAM or the government or any other organization. A couple of second mortgages, some HELOC funds, etc. We aren't talking about absolutely enormous sums, especially to the extend that they get bargained down.

It's not about "deserving" to have their ransom paid. It is about whether or not the families have the resources to do it. Just like any other expensive life or death situation like need for a bone marrow transplant. If your child needs one you don't wring your hands worrying about whether they "deserve" it. You do what you need to in order to make it happen.

They want $17m...

Which is $1 million per person. Chop it in half which is what this gang reportedly ended up accepting for other western hostages and priests that they kidnapped and you are down to $500,000 per person. Which is something that I expect most of these extended families and churches could raise. Take a second mortgage out on the farm or house, etc. If it were my wife or child down there I'd be figuring out how to get them home. I assume these families are doing the same whether we hear about it on the news or not.

Seems pretty selfish, considering the incentive it would put in place to kidnap other westerners.

What ever happen to Christians giving their lives to spread the gospel? Are the lives of the hostages worth it if it brings one of their captors to salvation?

[Ken]

They want $17m...

Which is $1 million per person. Chop it in half which is what this gang reportedly ended up accepting for other western hostages and priests that they kidnapped and you are down to $500,000 per person. Which is something that I expect most of these extended families and churches could raise. Take a second mortgage out on the farm or house, etc. If it were my wife or child down there I'd be figuring out how to get them home. I assume these families are doing the same whether we hear about it on the news or not.

Seems pretty selfish, considering the incentive it would put in place to kidnap other westerners.

What ever happen to Christians giving their lives to spread the gospel? Are the lives of the hostages worth it if it brings one of their captors to salvation?

It's nice of you to be so willing to sacrifice other people's children.

I expect we will soon find out how this all ends. But if it was my family I'd certainly be doing whatever it took to bring them home including paying ransoms if that was necessary, as I suspect it will be.

[steve-in-kville]

I think we're talking past each other again

Some co-workers of mine have distant family that are hostages. There's a lot of politics involved, even if a family were to raise $1m to bring someone home. I can't imagine how the family stateside feels.

All I can do is pray.

[nett]

Which is $1 million per person. Chop it in half which is what this gang reportedly ended up accepting for other western hostages and priests that they kidnapped and you are down to $500,000 per person. Which is something that I expect most of these extended families and churches could raise. Take a second mortgage out on the farm or house, etc. If it were my wife or child down there I'd be figuring out how to get them home. I assume these families are doing the same whether we hear about it on the news or not.

Seems pretty selfish, considering the incentive it would put in place to kidnap other westerners.

What ever happen to Christians giving their lives to spread the gospel? Are the lives of the hostages worth it if it brings one of their captors to salvation?

It's nice of you to be so willing to sacrifice other people's children.

I expect we will soon find out how this all ends. But if it was my family I'd certainly be doing whatever it took to bring them home including paying ransoms if that was necessary, as I suspect it will be.

Just to be clear, the act of not paying kidnappers is not "sacrificing other people's children".

I understand that CAM requires signed forms acknowledging the risk of kidnapping and that ransoms are not paid, but if these families went to Haiti without understanding the true risk, I am empathetic to that.

God didn't call me and my family to Haiti, but if he did, I would go with the understanding that it might cost us our lives, and not expect rich people to bail me out of that calling.

[Ken]

I think we're talking past each other again

Some co-workers of mine have distant family that are hostages. There's a lot of politics involved, even if a family were to raise $1m to bring someone home. I can't imagine how the family stateside feels.

All I can do is pray.

I'm second cousins to one of the kidnap victims as well. As is another frequent contributor here. Not so close that I'm aware of any family-related negotiations or fundraising or anything like that. I'm certainly not "in the loop" about anything going on. But I would certainly support them in whatever steps they are trying to take to see their families released.

[justme]

if i was the one kidnapped, i would many different emotions to work thru.
not the least would be that i would have a hard time processing the fact that my family doesn't care enough about me to want to attempt to get me out of that situation.
it's easy to say, don't reward the kidnappers for bad behavior. but i think that i would have a very hard time if my family didn't attempt to pay the ransom. if they said, sorry, we aren't being blackmailed like that, you are on your own. (i would hear, you aren't worth it to me.)

[nett]

if i was the one kidnapped, i would many different emotions to work thru.
not the least would be that i would have a hard time processing the fact that my family doesn't care enough about me to want to attempt to get me out of that situation.
it's easy to say, don't reward the kidnappers for bad behavior. but i think that i would have a very hard time if my family didn't attempt to pay the ransom. if they said, sorry, we aren't being blackmailed like that, you are on your own. (i would hear, you aren't worth it to me.)

Do you think those tortured and killed for the sake of the gospel that are documented in the Martyr's Mirror had that same struggle?

Where do you draw the line with this kind of thinking? Should we all grab our guns and head to Haiti to free them?