The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[RZehr]

I feel like we should cross that bridge when we come to it.

The Bible makes it clear that we should be persecuted for righteousness' sake, but not persecuted for doing things that are bad. (1 Peter 2:20)

Yes, I agree.

[Judas Maccabeus]

This may have been discussed already, so my apologies if it has.

Is there any sort of requirement for pastors/ministers/ordained officials to be mandated reporters? I'm assuming not, since this issue of church knowing of abuse and not reporting it, and then subsequently getting away with that, seems to be ever growing. I almost wish there were a requirement that if your church is an organized group with established leadership of any kind, the leadership must undergo mandated reporter training. That way there is at least some kind of legal accountability if issues are continuously swept under the rug. I don't know how this would work feasibly and I'm sure there would be resistance, but if our goal is to make this CA circle a place for people, especially children, to feel safe in, we need to have some kinds of official procedures and safeguards in place in my opinion.

Being a teacher, I am a mandated reporter, meaning if something is revealed to me that indicates any form of abuse or neglect, I must report it to a higher authority within my school, or directly to CPS. I've heard teachers say that they feel this is a burden, but I disagree. If keeping our children safe is a priority, then we need to act like it's a priority. Sometimes families just need resources. Sometimes there's an abuser that needs to be apprehended. There's so many different outcomes that can happen, but our ultimate goal should be the protection, safety, and well-being of the children. Period.

Yes, pastors are mandatory reporters. And pastors who did not report are going to jail in my state, and around the country.

You must be in Pennsylvania. You do know that this is not universally true. It is my understanding it is not so in Maryland. That being said, there are so many categories that are, if it comes to the attention of a church, they had better report it.

Both my wife ant I are mandatory reporters.

J.M.

J.M.

[JimFoxvog]

I think we need to be clear that there are false accusations. So if the accused says the accusations are false, the accused should be offered counseling and spiritual support also. We can listen sensitively and lovingly toward both the accused and the accuser. I've known several men whom I believe have been falsely accused.

I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding the part of your post that I put in bold. Would you please clarify for me? Is it your belief that it takes only the word of the accused to determine whether accusations are true or false?

I'm also curious to know what makes you say that you believe these several men you know have been falsely accused?

No, the word of the accused does not determine whether accusations are true or false. But when there is a chance that someone is falsely accused that person needs support. This support is not support in proving innocence, but emotional and spiritual support. It does not even necessarily mean making a judgment about innocence or guilt. False accusations can do harm to both the accused and the church body.

About the men I knew that seemed falsely accused, the people who knew them better than I did explained the basis of the accusations in a manner that was convincing.

[Aurien]

I think we need to be clear that there are false accusations. So if the accused says the accusations are false, the accused should be offered counseling and spiritual support also. We can listen sensitively and lovingly toward both the accused and the accuser. I've known several men whom I believe have been falsely accused.

I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding the part of your post that I put in bold. Would you please clarify for me? Is it your belief that it takes only the word of the accused to determine whether accusations are true or false?

I'm also curious to know what makes you say that you believe these several men you know have been falsely accused?

No, the word of the accused does not determine whether accusations are true or false. But when there is a chance that someone is falsely accused that person needs support. This support is not support in proving innocence, but emotional and spiritual support. It does not even necessarily mean making a judgment about innocence or guilt. False accusations can do harm to both the accused and the church body.

About the men I knew that seemed falsely accused, the people who knew them better than I did explained the basis of the accusations in a manner that was convincing.

I see.

[DrWojo]

Under Old Testament law, wasn’t the penalty for bearing false witness the same penalty as whatever sin was being alleged? For example, illicit sexual activities warranted the death penalty, so if a person falsely accused someone else of an illicit sexual activity and it was discovered they bore false witness, then the talebearer’s penalty would be to be put to death?

[queserasera_2]

Slander and intentionally false accusations are a sin. But I think it's pretty tone deaf for this to be the conversation here. J Mast has CONFESSED. He did it. All of it.

As for H Herr, I think you need to think about the price his family paid for their accusations...before you believe his denials.

In the Conserv Menno world, the cost of accusing is so blisteringly high that anyone who admits an accusation, I believe. Look at how they talk about them. Children "lost their purity".... (CAM) That's disgusting.

[DrWojo]

Slander and intentionally false accusations are a sin. But I think it's pretty tone deaf for this to be the conversation here. J Mast has CONFESSED. He did it. All of it.

As for H Herr, I think you need to think about the price his family paid for their accusations...before you believe his denials.

In the Conserv Menno world, the cost of accusing is so blisteringly high that anyone who admits an accusation, I believe. Look at how they talk about them. Children "lost their purity".... (CAM) That's disgusting.

Statistically I believe Frosty the Snowman has a better chance of ingesting a gallon of antifreeze and being unharmed than any plain person would be dealt with for bearing false witness.

[appleman2006]

Slander and intentionally false accusations are a sin. But I think it's pretty tone deaf for this to be the conversation here. J Mast has CONFESSED. He did it. All of it.

As for H Herr, I think you need to think about the price his family paid for their accusations...before you believe his denials.

In the Conserv Menno world, the cost of accusing is so blisteringly high that anyone who admits an accusation, I believe. Look at how they talk about them. Children "lost their purity".... (CAM) That's disgusting.

Statistically I believe Frosty the Snowman has a better chance of ingesting a gallon of antifreeze and being unharmed than any plain person would be dealt with for bearing false witness.

Unfortunately it sometimes depends who you are.

[DrWojo]

Slander and intentionally false accusations are a sin. But I think it's pretty tone deaf for this to be the conversation here. J Mast has CONFESSED. He did it. All of it.

As for H Herr, I think you need to think about the price his family paid for their accusations...before you believe his denials.

In the Conserv Menno world, the cost of accusing is so blisteringly high that anyone who admits an accusation, I believe. Look at how they talk about them. Children "lost their purity".... (CAM) That's disgusting.

Statistically I believe Frosty the Snowman has a better chance of ingesting a gallon of antifreeze and being unharmed than any plain person would be dealt with for bearing false witness.

Unfortunately it sometimes depends who you are.

I find it interesting that all 3 topics of accusations, committing sins and partiality are all covered in 1Timothy 5:19-21:

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

It’s as though the Holy Ghost foresaw events involving these behaviors and addressed them together in this passage.

[annkat]

The mandated reporting system does give me concern. While so far, as it is, there isn’t much of a problem, I think there will be down the road. I think I see churches and preachers become used to that as the norm, and compliance becomes the norm, then over time more things become mandated to report, things that we do not believe to be sin. It’s setting the groundwork, I fear, for a USSR style partnership between the Russian Orthodox Church and the KGB. I don’t see anything that extreme, but I do see there coming a time where we will be in a position that the law requires us to report something against our own conscience.

I am concerned about the eroding of the freedom and independence of the church and religion.

Then what is the solution? Surely we know the opposite is true; there are churches who do not report terrible things because they do not believe them to be terrible. The marrying of young girls to grown men in the FLDS churches come to mind. And surely we see that many pastors and church leaders are clearly not showing to have enough conscious of their own to report abuse. I would rather due diligence be the norm than sitting around shoving stuff under the rug being the norm. And if we're really going to go down the complacent road, why have mandatory reporting at all, in any realm? I too want to see religious freedom but I must say that the safety and well being of children is higher up on my list of concerns. I have a hard time rallying around a hypothetical church-government partnership when children's lives are being destroyed right in front of our eyes.

If we want to keep church and religious autonomy, maybe the church could create their own set of guidelines that would then be approved by an unaffiliated, non-partisan governing body of some kind. If someone within the church was known to break these guidelines set forth by the church, then the proper authorities must be notified. These guidelines would be separate from typical church rules and regulations/common practices for members.