The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[queserasera_2]

One very big problem that (some? a lot?) Mennonites seem to have is the conflation of natural sexual desire outside of bounds with the sexual predation of little children. It is NOT the same thing. It is orders of magnitude different.

If a man has used and abused little children for his own pleasure, destroying their innocence and lives forever, people deserve to know that so they can protect others. Anyone who says otherwise has never had their loved one victimized. The children of this world are wiser than the children of light on this issue.

[Aurien]

An alleged abuser should not be confronted unless it is by someone who is trained to do so. Abusers are skilled in deceiving and manipulating others and it's easy for them to either convince people that the allegations are false or to admit that they may have done "something" and then pretend that they have repented of it.

https://www.netgrace.org/resources/resi ... estigation

https://www.netgrace.org/resources/inno ... ven-guilty

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... er-Do_.pdf

https://www.netgrace.org/resources/if-y ... tthew%2018

https://splash4ripples.com/2016/01/30/c ... rs-part-1/

[Ms. Izzie]

The ones doing the accusing AND the ones being accused should be interested in hearing the whole story. If there is a discrepancy in the stories, these discrepancies should be investigated.

Who should do the investigating if there are discrepancies?

[Josh]

As someone who followed the process Ernie described, I wish my experience (including gossip, slander, and character destruction against me) would be taken more seriously.

“ Those in the wrong should be given sufficient time to make the wrongs right, and sufficient time to make the necessary changes in their lives so that it does not happen again.
If after this process there is not repentance and amendment of life, there may may be room for making these matters public.”

Ernie, you seem to be saying that repeated abusers do children should be given “sufficient time to make the wrongs right” before going public.

Exactly how much time? Look at the Jeriah Mast and Harold Herr situations. These have dragged on for years, and people who spoke up were the target of slander, gossip, and character destruction.

Meanwhile Harold Herr is still headed to Haiti and CAM still sells his book.

How much time do you want?

Do you care to make things right involving how people like myself, TruthSeeker, and many others have been treated who have tried to follow the process you just advocated?

[TruthSeeker]

BTW: Some people at the Ephrata Business Center (Charity) where Harold Herr is a member believe Mose Stoltzfus "cleared" Harold. The clearing appears to have occurred at the time of the meeting in question in 2 of Trudy's blogs--the one where Harold himself was present* to discuss what to do about Harold. Is it possible that different persons attending the meeting held different positions on Mose's verdict? Is it possible that some conversation ensued regarding how Trudy might blog about Mose having "cleared" Harold?

I do not know if, in fact, Mose Stoltzfus "cleared" Harold Herr. The point I'm making is that some very contradictory perceptions have been formed on what took place at the said meeting and what the resulting plans are. How does a journalist realistically capture the dichotomies?

*Perhaps Harold was invited to receive his "cleared" verdict. Typically the accused do not sit in on investigators' strategizing meetings!

[Time4Truth]

BTW: Some people at the Ephrata Business Center (Charity) where Harold Herr is a member believe Mose Stoltzfus "cleared" Harold. The clearing appears to have occurred at the time of the meeting in question in 2 of Trudy's blogs--the one where Harold himself was present* to discuss what to do about Harold. Is it possible that different persons attending the meeting held different positions on Mose's verdict? Is it possible that some conversation ensued regarding how Trudy might blog about Mose having "cleared" Harold?

I do not know if, in fact, Mose Stoltzfus "cleared" Harold Herr. The point I'm making is that some very contradictory perceptions have been formed on what took place at the said meeting and what the resulting plans are. How does a journalist realistically capture the dichotomies?

*Perhaps Harold was invited to receive his "cleared" verdict. Typically the accused do not sit in on investigators' strategizing meetings!

The pattern of these leaders/ministries who consistently attempt to clear a perpetrator while vilifying the abused is mind boggling. The picture becomes clearer as the nonsense builds and the general public is not confused by their ploys! What are the possibilities the staunch defenders have their own 'necks' to consider?

[Ernie]

Ernie, you seem to be saying that repeated abusers do children should be given “sufficient time to make the wrongs right” before going public.

I can understand your question based on what I wrote. I debated posting again on MN and thought I would make one more stab at it. Now I wish I hadn't.
I think Appleman is right that the timing for my post was probably not good due to the public awareness of mistakes and sins of Christians who have not properly dealt with the sexual sins of others.

Having said that... I will try to answer your question, with the knowledge that I may still be misunderstood.

I was trying to say that those who have allowed someone to abuse others, need to be given some time to fully recompense and help the victims. (even though they can and should get started with this restitution right away)
Those who are repenting of gossip or slander need to be given some time to apologize to everyone they informed (even though they can and should get started apologizing to people right away)

[Josh]

Ernie, you seem to be saying that repeated abusers do children should be given “sufficient time to make the wrongs right” before going public.

I can understand your question based on what I wrote. I debated posting again on MN and thought I would make one more stab at it. Now I wish I hadn't.
I think Appleman is right that the timing for my post was probably not good due to the public awareness of mistakes and sins of Christians who have not properly dealt with the sexual sins of others.

Having said that... I will try to answer your question, with the knowledge that I may still be misunderstood.

I was trying to say that those who have allowed someone to abuse others, need to be given some time to fully recompense and help the victims. (even though they can and should get started with this restitution right away)
Those who are repenting of gossip or slander need to be given some time to apologize to everyone they informed (even though they can and should get started apologizing to people right away)

I think it’s deeply disturbing to equate being a gossip with being a leader who covers up sexual abuse of children.

And yes, your timing is not good. Anyone who tries to speak up about abuse (including myself) has been labelled a gossip, a slanderer, and a character destroyer. There have been no apologies or trying to set things right about that.

Yet you really feel it’s OK to ask for more time for people who continue to cover up, deny, and deflect exposing and rooting out sexual abuse of children?

Ernie, with love, brother to brother, you need to take a hard look at what you are advocating and promoting. I am to this day left out in the cold for the stance I took.

There is much more grace extended to abusers and those who cover up abuse than to a little nobody like me who dared to speak up. This must change and has to change. What will your answer be on judgment day?

[Aurien]

I think Appleman is right that the timing for my post was probably not good due to the public awareness of mistakes and sins of Christians who have not properly dealt with the sexual sins of others.

Having said that... I will try to answer your question, with the knowledge that I may still be misunderstood.

I was trying to say that those who have allowed someone to abuse others, need to be given some time to fully recompense and help the victims. (even though they can and should get started with this restitution right away)
Those who are repenting of gossip or slander need to be given some time to apologize to everyone they informed (even though they can and should get started apologizing to people right away)

It was the wording of your post that gave me pause.

I believe that before a person (or group of persons) are accused of wrong doing, the one with the accusation should meet personally with the ones purported to be in the wrong or the ones purported to be responsible for the wrong.

The way you wrote this makes it sound as though you were advocating for all problems to be handled in this way, including allegations of sexual abuse against someone. As I stated in an earlier post it could turn out quite badly if an alleged abuser was confronted like this.

[Ernie]

Yet you really feel it’s OK to ask for more time for people who continue to cover up, deny, and deflect exposing and rooting out sexual abuse of children?

No, I did not say that, nor do I believe that.