The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[mike]

That's a key issue here in my opinion. Although I don't know precisely what leadership roles if any HH filled in the past, I have the impression that it was not church leadership so much as missionary roles. I don't know for sure. Do these same biblical requirements for elders and deacons also apply to other roles in the work of the church? I.e., "missionary," youth leader, Bible study facilitator, event organizer, prison ministry leader?

In his book, he sure occupied the role of a church leader, officiating baptisms and communion services in Haiti.

It should be obvious why such a person needs to be above reproach. Just to make this clear, none of your churches would accept me as a leader or to officiate such roles, even in a mission field, simply because of a history of divorce in my past and because I'm not married now.

So what gives here?

What gives is that a person's good reputation in the community at large is a biblical requirement for a church leadership position. The wisdom behind this requirement is made evident occasionally.

[Aurien]

Background checks were not the issue here.

It is my understanding that the Hope Church was warned about HH 's sexual allegations, by family prior to ordaining him. They chose to disregard the information & proceed.

In other words, they had the background check information . . . and blatantly disregarded it.

Are not the scriptures clear about the requirements to ordain a minister (bishop or deacon)? They must be blameless and of good reputation with "those who are without".

That's a key issue here in my opinion. Although I don't know precisely what leadership roles if any HH filled in the past, I have the impression that it was not church leadership so much as missionary roles. I don't know for sure. Do these same biblical requirements for elders and deacons also apply to other roles in the work of the church? I.e., "missionary," youth leader, Bible study facilitator, event organizer, prison ministry leader?

According to this link Harold Herr filled a church leadership role.

https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Muddy ... ania,_USA)

There were 21 charter members. Earl Horst served as bishop, Edwin Gehman and Harold Herr as ministers, and Elvin Horst as deacon.

Four ordained men at Muddy Creek have resigned from their duties. They include Harold Herr, who became a missionary to Haiti;

[queserasera_2]

A muddy creek, indeed...

[Aurien]

A muddy creek, indeed...

That was my mom's response when I told her about Harold Herr's affiliation with that church!

[Josh]

That's a key issue here in my opinion. Although I don't know precisely what leadership roles if any HH filled in the past, I have the impression that it was not church leadership so much as missionary roles. I don't know for sure. Do these same biblical requirements for elders and deacons also apply to other roles in the work of the church? I.e., "missionary," youth leader, Bible study facilitator, event organizer, prison ministry leader?

In his book, he sure occupied the role of a church leader, officiating baptisms and communion services in Haiti.

It should be obvious why such a person needs to be above reproach. Just to make this clear, none of your churches would accept me as a leader or to officiate such roles, even in a mission field, simply because of a history of divorce in my past and because I'm not married now.

So what gives here?

What gives is that a person's good reputation in the community at large is a biblical requirement for a church leadership position. The wisdom behind this requirement is made evident occasionally.

I agree.

I’m saying “what gives” as to why men like Herr and Mast occupied and were ordained to leadership roles.

[mike]

I agree.

I’m saying “what gives” as to why men like Herr and Mast occupied and were ordained to leadership roles.

Only the organizations/churches know the answer to this.

[Aurien]

Trudy's latest blog post.

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/02/16/i ... orrection/

It is no surprise that when you spread wild allegations based on gossipy third party information there will have to be corrections and retractions. It is one thing to share verified first-hand information and another to publish juicy nonsense that verifies pre-existing biases. Trudy's original post on the now-retracted story that a group of leaders had met about what to do with her also included these allegations that "victims" were beaten and whipped under the advice of Mose Stoltzfus. To me stuff like this is just garbage. It set off my BS detector when I first read it. It tarnishes the authenticity of true, first-hand victim accounts and actual situations of abuse that are worth considering, and it makes me understand why there are sincere people also working with sexual abuse victims who find it difficult to work with Trudy.

Mike, have you ever tried contacting Trudy directly to express your concerns?

[mike]

Trudy's latest blog post.

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/02/16/i ... orrection/

It is no surprise that when you spread wild allegations based on gossipy third party information there will have to be corrections and retractions. It is one thing to share verified first-hand information and another to publish juicy nonsense that verifies pre-existing biases. Trudy's original post on the now-retracted story that a group of leaders had met about what to do with her also included these allegations that "victims" were beaten and whipped under the advice of Mose Stoltzfus. To me stuff like this is just garbage. It set off my BS detector when I first read it. It tarnishes the authenticity of true, first-hand victim accounts and actual situations of abuse that are worth considering, and it makes me understand why there are sincere people also working with sexual abuse victims who find it difficult to work with Trudy.

Mike, have you ever tried contacting Trudy directly to express your concerns?

I have not.

[Judas Maccabeus]

In other words, they had the background check information . . . and blatantly disregarded it.

Are not the scriptures clear about the requirements to ordain a minister (bishop or deacon)? They must be blameless and of good reputation with "those who are without".

That's a key issue here in my opinion. Although I don't know precisely what leadership roles if any HH filled in the past, I have the impression that it was not church leadership so much as missionary roles. I don't know for sure. Do these same biblical requirements for elders and deacons also apply to other roles in the work of the church? I.e., "missionary," youth leader, Bible study facilitator, event organizer, prison ministry leader?

According to this link Harold Herr filled a church leadership role.

https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Muddy ... ania,_USA)

There were 21 charter members. Earl Horst served as bishop, Edwin Gehman and Harold Herr as ministers, and Elvin Horst as deacon.

Four ordained men at Muddy Creek have resigned from their duties. They include Harold Herr, who became a missionary to Haiti;

That page is now empty, gives no info. Could you try it again please?

J.M.

[Aurien]

That's a key issue here in my opinion. Although I don't know precisely what leadership roles if any HH filled in the past, I have the impression that it was not church leadership so much as missionary roles. I don't know for sure. Do these same biblical requirements for elders and deacons also apply to other roles in the work of the church? I.e., "missionary," youth leader, Bible study facilitator, event organizer, prison ministry leader?

According to this link Harold Herr filled a church leadership role.

https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Muddy ... ania,_USA)

There were 21 charter members. Earl Horst served as bishop, Edwin Gehman and Harold Herr as ministers, and Elvin Horst as deacon.

Four ordained men at Muddy Creek have resigned from their duties. They include Harold Herr, who became a missionary to Haiti;

That page is now empty, gives no info. Could you try it again please?

J.M.

I see that. It's the correct link but for whatever reason clicking on the copied and pasted link won't let us view the page. When I search Muddy Creek Mennonite Church on Google though, Gameo is the first link that comes up for that so it should be pretty easy to find. You could also go to Gameo.org and search for Muddy Creek Mennonite Church.