The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[Aurien]

"Poor man"?

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

The "Poor man" part caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit too. Merriam-Webster's definition of poor is "exciting pity." So I guess I can see why someone would call him "poor man" since the sins/crimes he's committed point to a man devoid of conscience who seems currently bound for hell.

Is that not an object of pity?

Yes it is. Which is why I said I can see why someone would call him that. The eyebrow raising part is that it's not usual to see "poor" used when talking about a wicked man who abused children.

[Aurien]

The "Poor man" part caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit too. Merriam-Webster's definition of poor is "exciting pity." So I guess I can see why someone would call him "poor man" since the sins/crimes he's committed point to a man devoid of conscience who seems currently bound for hell.

Is that not an object of pity?

Even a man like this, deplorable and pitiful as he may be, never stops being a beloved child of God. These detestable wrongs can't be undone, but healing might still begin to happen. I pray that before he dies his heart breaks for what he has done - and I also pray that the dear children he abused can someday know remorse from him.

I'm curious as to why you would describe him as a beloved child of God. John 3:16 says God loved the whole world but only those who are born again are called children of God. 1 John 3:10 says,

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

David Smucker's deeds would definitely seem to be those of someone who is not a child of God. I could only see calling him a beloved child of God if you (or anyone else) believes in "Once saved, always saved" and believes that Mr. Smucker was saved sometime in the past.

[Joy]

Well, I have a friend on death row who is a psychopath on his way to hell. I don't feel pity--I feel fear for him for his conscious, continuing choice to nurture a wicked heart.

He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36b

[silentreader]

The "Poor man" part caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit too. Merriam-Webster's definition of poor is "exciting pity." So I guess I can see why someone would call him "poor man" since the sins/crimes he's committed point to a man devoid of conscience who seems currently bound for hell.

Is that not an object of pity?

Yes it is. Which is why I said I can see why someone would call him that. The eyebrow raising part is that it's not usual to see "poor" used when talking about a wicked man who abused children.

I'm sorry, I misread what you said.

[silentreader]

[/i][/b]

Is that not an object of pity?

Even a man like this, deplorable and pitiful as he may be, never stops being a beloved child of God. These detestable wrongs can't be undone, but healing might still begin to happen. I pray that before he dies his heart breaks for what he has done - and I also pray that the dear children he abused can someday know remorse from him.

I'm curious as to why you would describe him as a beloved child of God. John 3:16 says God loved the whole world but only those who are born again are called children of God. 1 John 3:10 says,

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

David Smucker's deeds would definitely seem to be those of someone who is not a child of God. I could only see calling him a beloved child of God if you (or anyone else) believes in "Once saved, always saved" and believes that Mr. Smucker was saved sometime in the past.

Not OSAS, but there is still opportunity for repentance, however unlikely it may appear. And I agree with Joy, pity is not the right word.

[Time4Truth]

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/01/25/m ... sgIOlAzzNI

[Time4Truth]

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/01/26/a ... riHaBLF5E0


Update on HH allegations & CAM/LL response

[temporal1]

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/01/26/a ... riHaBLF5E0

Update on HH allegations & CAM/LL response

The scope of these cases is hard to grasp.

.. CLOSING THOUGHTS
I do not presume any specific outcome to such an investigation. I simply expect the spiritual leaders in any faith tradition, in this case the Anabaptist community, to act transparently and in good faith,
equally protecting the rights of the accused as well as the potential victims.

With compassion for all who are impacted by these allegations, especially my family and my father.
Daniel Herr

The peculiar and almost unbelievable thing is to understand how the rights of the accused take such precedence over rights of victims. It’s counterintuitive to the point (i think) many of us are in denial about it. Certainly, in “olden days” there were harsh injustices, lack of opportunity for defense, etc., that was long ago. Today, in secular courts, rights and protections for the accused, and even those proven guilty as charged, take first priority. In comparison, victims are essentially ignored. Outside secular courts, it’s much the same, done without legal formalities. Denials, coverups, excuses, etc.

When DH says he wants equal protection of rights for the accused and victims, i’m thinking this would be quite an INCREASE in protections to victims to get anywhere near protections the accused have come to expect and enjoy in contemporary courts of human law.

i am likewise aware there is no shortage of people (who claim) they want swift+harsh punishment!
Including torture and death. But these do not have power in courts, if they attempt to take action on their own, THEY would pay swift and high punishment for their actions. And they know it.
(so, i’m never sure if they are sincere, or just venting out of repulsion, frustration, and anger).

Victims are judged, sentenced, punished without benefit of ANY legal counsel, juries, judges.
All at the discretion of their abusers, who, once accused, enjoy all these legal benefits, then may be cared for by the state decades after.

[TruthSeeker]

https://splash4ripples.com/2020/01/26/a ... riHaBLF5E0


Update on HH allegations & CAM/LL response

In support and honor of this victim (my kindhearted big brother who, when I was a teeny bopper, assisted me with lacing/tying my ice skates before skating away with his buddies), I am posting the lyrics to Bob Dylan's "Blow'in In the Wind:

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind
Yes, 'n' how many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind
Yes, 'n' how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

[joshuabgood]

So sad. Thank you Dan Herr for being willing to air this...I can only imagine the trauma the mother went through. Surely the time is now for sackcloth and ashes.