Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

It occurred to me that Russian troops shooting at civilians might have been out of fear of suicide bombings. However, what is coming out of the Kyiv suburb of Bucha goes beyond that. There are reports of dead Ukrainian civilians found with their hands tied behind their backs.

I don't think that is the case, but the dead civilians might not have been civilians and then who actually tied their hands? was it post mortem or before? There are too many aspects that are unclear... just filming dead people and making a claim doesn't actually hold up. No record of Russian troops killing them is available, no autopsy for bullet analysis is likely done and even if it was thats pretty easy to fake.
I also wouldn't place much stock in what some Russian leader says as our own leaders say some pretty stupid things regularly.

Russia has an interest in convincing civilians they are friendly, and Ukraine has an interest in saying Russia is not friendly.

[Ken]

I don't think that is the case, but the dead civilians might not have been civilians and then who actually tied their hands? was it post mortem or before? There are too many aspects that are unclear... just filming dead people and making a claim doesn't actually hold up. No record of Russian troops killing them is available, no autopsy for bullet analysis is likely done and even if it was thats pretty easy to fake.

I also wouldn't place much stock in what some Russian leader says as our own leaders say some pretty stupid things regularly.

Russia has an interest in convincing civilians they are friendly, and Ukraine has an interest in saying Russia is not friendly.

Bucha is not Mariupol where fighting continues. Bucha was overrun on the third day of the war by Russian forces who faced little or no opposition and it was occupied by those Russian troops for a month. The New York Times today did a detailed satellite analysis matching satellite imagery from the past weeks with the images of dead bodies filmed by Ukrainian forces entering Bucha. All of the bodies of dead civilians scattered around the roads have been there for 1-3 weeks, long before Ukrainian forces approached let alone retook Bucha. This all happened on the Russian's watch when they were occupying the town and were in complete control. They murdered scores of civilians and just left the bodies lie there to rot. In short, the Russians have been caught out in their own web of lies The evidence of that is overwhelming:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/worl ... odies.html

An analysis of satellite images by The New York Times rebuts claims by Russia that the killing of civilians in Bucha, a suburb of Kyiv, occurred after its soldiers had left the town.

When images emerged over the weekend of the bodies of dead civilians lying on the streets of Bucha — some with their hands bound, some with gunshot wounds to the head — Russia’s Ministry of Defense denied responsibility. In a Telegram post on Sunday, the ministry suggested that the bodies had been recently placed on the streets after “all Russian units withdrew completely from Bucha” around March 30.

Russia claimed that the images were “another hoax” and called for an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting on what it called “provocations of Ukrainian radicals” in Bucha.

But a review of videos and satellite imagery by The Times shows that many of the civilians were killed more than three weeks ago, when Russia’s military was in control of the town.

One video filmed by a local council member on April 1 shows multiple bodies scattered along Yablonska Street in Bucha. Satellite images provided to The Times by Maxar Technologies show that at least 11 of those had been on the street since March 11, when Russia, by its own account, occupied the town.

To confirm when the bodies appeared, and when the civilians were likely killed, the Visual Investigations team at The Times conducted a before-and-after analysis of satellite imagery. The images show dark objects of similar size to a human body appearing on Yablonska Street between March 9 and March 11. The objects appear in the precise positions in which the bodies were found after Ukrainian forces reclaimed Bucha, as the footage from April 1 shows. Further analysis shows that the objects remained in those position for over three weeks.

Most of the article is video analysis that I can't link to here directly, But here are some examples comparing satellite imagery from previous weeks with on-the-ground video taken by Ukrainian forces entering Bucha

[Ken]

This is the actual Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs tweet disseminating lies about their culpability for the massacre in Bucha that was refuted almost in real-time by the New York Times in the story I linked to above. Although this is pretty grim and horrible story, it is still quite amazing to see government lies and propaganda get demolished so effectively in near real-time. Russia has destroyed whatever credibility it once had. Every single word of this tweet and news release has been proven to be lies by the NYT and other news organizations.

[Soloist]

Bucha is not Mariupol where fighting continues. Bucha was overrun on the third day of the war by Russian forces who faced little or no opposition and it was occupied by those Russian troops for a month. The New York Times today did a detailed satellite analysis matching satellite imagery from the past weeks with the images of dead bodies filmed by Ukrainian forces entering Bucha. All of the bodies of dead civilians scattered around the roads have been there for 1-3 weeks, long before Ukrainian forces approached let alone retook Bucha. This all happened on the Russian's watch when they were occupying the town and were in complete control. They murdered scores of civilians and just left the bodies lie there to rot. In short, the Russians have been caught out in their own web of lies The evidence of that is overwhelming:

I'm not skilled in determining time of death from a photo nor skilled in identifying if the pictures are correct. There are certain markers that can be identified to determine time of death but many of those are concealed by freezing temps. Warning, graphic information on death https://www.chem.fsu.edu/chemlab/chm102 ... 208/02.php

The evidence is not overwhelming and you made up your mind as soon as the media did. The location of Bucha is close to the front lines, it might very well have been the Russian front line. We can barely take care of our own dead in a combat zone let alone civilians. I'm sure if you knew where to look you could see other major players with similar issues. I've looked at the evidence, most of it is "trust us, we know" and likewise the same for Russia's denials. Could some of these have been other causes? how do we know that these pictures were during the occupation? None of the satellite evidence I saw showed any military hardware or Russian occupiers. They admit they don't know who killed them or what. The big one people focus on is the tied hands but it doesn't tell you how many were that way or who killed them. Could they have been Russian sympathizers? We don't know who they were or who killed them and unless they actually can prove Russia did it, it doesn't really matter anymore then any civilians died from attacks.
Assuming the Russians did kill them, yes thats bad and it would be war crimes. If they were killed accidentally, they should have had the bodies taken care of. If they did a mass grave that would be used as ammunition against them even though Ukraine used mass graves too.

I just don't see a proof here of who did it. Were the bodies stiff? or were they pliable? I didn't watch any video of them moving bodies.

[Ken]

Bucha is not Mariupol where fighting continues. Bucha was overrun on the third day of the war by Russian forces who faced little or no opposition and it was occupied by those Russian troops for a month. The New York Times today did a detailed satellite analysis matching satellite imagery from the past weeks with the images of dead bodies filmed by Ukrainian forces entering Bucha. All of the bodies of dead civilians scattered around the roads have been there for 1-3 weeks, long before Ukrainian forces approached let alone retook Bucha. This all happened on the Russian's watch when they were occupying the town and were in complete control. They murdered scores of civilians and just left the bodies lie there to rot. In short, the Russians have been caught out in their own web of lies The evidence of that is overwhelming:

I'm not skilled in determining time of death from a photo nor skilled in identifying if the pictures are correct. There are certain markers that can be identified to determine time of death but many of those are concealed by freezing temps. Warning, graphic information on death https://www.chem.fsu.edu/chemlab/chm102 ... 208/02.php

The evidence is not overwhelming and you made up your mind as soon as the media did. The location of Bucha is close to the front lines, it might very well have been the Russian front line. We can barely take care of our own dead in a combat zone let alone civilians. I'm sure if you knew where to look you could see other major players with similar issues. I've looked at the evidence, most of it is "trust us, we know" and likewise the same for Russia's denials. Could some of these have been other causes? how do we know that these pictures were during the occupation? None of the satellite evidence I saw showed any military hardware or Russian occupiers. They admit they don't know who killed them or what. The big one people focus on is the tied hands but it doesn't tell you how many were that way or who killed them. Could they have been Russian sympathizers? We don't know who they were or who killed them and unless they actually can prove Russia did it, it doesn't really matter anymore then any civilians died from attacks.
Assuming the Russians did kill them, yes thats bad and it would be war crimes. If they were killed accidentally, they should have had the bodies taken care of. If they did a mass grave that would be used as ammunition against them even though Ukraine used mass graves too.

I just don't see a proof here of who did it. Were the bodies stiff? or were they pliable? I didn't watch any video of them moving bodies.

Read the claims made by Russia above.

1. They claim they were in Bucha until March 30
2. They claim that during the time that the town was under Russian control not a single local resident suffered from any violent action
3. They claim that the video and photographic evidence didn't emerge until the 4th day (April 3) when Ukrainian forces entered the town

However, satellite evidence shows that most of the dead civilian bodies appeared on the streets in mid-March which was 2-weeks AFTER the Russians took control and 2-weeks BEFORE they admit to leaving. There is no other conclusion to draw other than that Russian troops shot scores of civilians and left their bodies to rot in the street until being discovered by approaching Ukrainian forces. The open-source satellite imagery obtained by the New York Times (which is time-stamped) directly refutes every claim made by Russia.

Remember two additional things: (1) the Russians did not intend to abandon their occupation of Northern Ukraine. They were settling in for the long-haul. If they were still there as they intended we would be hearing or seeing about any of this, and (2) the Ukrainian counter-offensive which re-took the area was fast and furious and likely left the Russians no time to clean up after themselves. Essentially they were routed and fled.

Here is some of the Russian military hardware in Bucha that was destroyed by the approaching Ukrainians. It doesn't look like they left in an orderly fashion.

[Soloist]

Read the claims made by Russia above.

1. They claim they were in Bucha until March 30
2. They claim that during the time that the town was under Russian control not a single local resident suffered from any violent action
3. They claim that the video and photographic evidence didn't emerge until the 4th day (April 3) when Ukrainian forces entered the town

Clearly stupid claims.

However, satellite evidence shows that most of the dead civilian bodies appeared on the streets in mid-March which was 2-weeks AFTER the Russians took control and 2-weeks BEFORE they admit to leaving. There is no other conclusion to draw other than that Russian troops shot scores of civilians and left their bodies to rot in the street until being discovered by approaching Ukrainian forces. The open-source satellite imagery obtained by the New York Times (which is time-stamped) directly refutes every claim made by Russia.

No way to verify the time stamp which is easy to fake.

Remember two additional things: (1) the Russians did not intend to abandon their occupation of Northern Ukraine. They were settling in for the long-haul. If they were still there as they intended we would be hearing or seeing about any of this, and (2) the Ukrainian counter-offensive which re-took the area was fast and furious and likely left the Russians no time to clean up after themselves. Essentially they were routed and fled.

Subjective. This is your personal opinion. The Russians were not routed.

Here is some of the Russian military hardware in Bucha that was destroyed by the approaching Ukrainians. It doesn't look like they left in an orderly fashion.

And how do you know its Russian hardware? Can you point to Ukraine armor that was lost? Can you point to anything other then stationary targets that were damaged? the only thing I've seen was released by Russia.

Ken, its impossible for me to know how you responded to "Operation Iraqi Freedom" but the media was on overdrive for pro-war rhetoric. I see value in holding back judgement at the very least until some actual investigative elements have confirmed these claims by either side. That being said, there isn't any neutral party in this world so regardless both sides will continue to believe what they believe.

[Ken]

Read the claims made by Russia above.

1. They claim they were in Bucha until March 30
2. They claim that during the time that the town was under Russian control not a single local resident suffered from any violent action
3. They claim that the video and photographic evidence didn't emerge until the 4th day (April 3) when Ukrainian forces entered the town

Clearly stupid claims.

However, satellite evidence shows that most of the dead civilian bodies appeared on the streets in mid-March which was 2-weeks AFTER the Russians took control and 2-weeks BEFORE they admit to leaving. There is no other conclusion to draw other than that Russian troops shot scores of civilians and left their bodies to rot in the street until being discovered by approaching Ukrainian forces. The open-source satellite imagery obtained by the New York Times (which is time-stamped) directly refutes every claim made by Russia.

No way to verify the time stamp which is easy to fake.

Remember two additional things: (1) the Russians did not intend to abandon their occupation of Northern Ukraine. They were settling in for the long-haul. If they were still there as they intended we would be hearing or seeing about any of this, and (2) the Ukrainian counter-offensive which re-took the area was fast and furious and likely left the Russians no time to clean up after themselves. Essentially they were routed and fled.

Subjective. This is your personal opinion. The Russians were not routed.

Here is some of the Russian military hardware in Bucha that was destroyed by the approaching Ukrainians. It doesn't look like they left in an orderly fashion.

And how do you know its Russian hardware? Can you point to Ukraine armor that was lost? Can you point to anything other then stationary targets that were damaged? the only thing I've seen was released by Russia.

Ken, its impossible for me to know how you responded to "Operation Iraqi Freedom" but the media was on overdrive for pro-war rhetoric. I see value in holding back judgement at the very least until some actual investigative elements have confirmed these claims by either side. That being said, there isn't any neutral party in this world so regardless both sides will continue to believe what they believe.

First, the satellite imagery was acquired by the NYT directly from Maxar which is a commercial provider of satellite imagery: https://www.maxar.com/ as they described in the article. No faking of time-stamps involved unless you believe the NYT is in the business of falsifying information and deliberately manufacturing false propaganda on behalf of Ukraine.

Second, the image in the photo was taken by the BBC upon entering Bucha. I do trust BBC war reporters to know their business and make proper attributions. They are professionals. You can see a different photo of the same scene below on the front page of the Guardian in which they identify it as Russian equipment left by retreating Russian troops.

Third, similar evidence of Russian atrocities are being uncovered all across the occupied zones of Northern Ukraine in the wake of the Russian retreat. Bucha is reportedly not even the worst. Reports are coming in of worse mass graves in Borodyanka. So this is not a one-off sort of thing that happened in one town by one particular military unit. It suggests a pattern which is indicative of command-level policy. International human rights investigators are now involved and on the scenes as well as dozens of professional reporters from mainstream American and European press agencies and the discoveries are being documented across the world media. So this isn't just anonymous twitter trolls. More information is rolling out on an hourly basis.

Fourth. My opinion of the Iraq War in real time? The invasion was launched on the morning of March 20, 2003. How do I know that date? It was the date my second daughter was born and I watched it unfold on TV from my wife's hospital room in Juneau Alaska as we were waiting for her scheduled C-section. She is now a college freshman. I thought that war was an illegal war launched on false pretenses just like this current war. I thought the American and international forces performed reasonably well against a severely outmatched foe. But that the occupation itself was a horrific and incompetent fiasco that unfolded exactly as predicted by experts such as General Eric Shinseki who warned Congress that the occupation plans and occupation forces were hopelessly inadequate. Warnings that proved prescient. I attended a couple of local protests but living way out on the very edge of the country as we were, we were hardly at the center of anything, so I mostly just watched it unfold with growing horror and disgust as the country descended into chaos and the lies of the Bush Administration began to unravel with respect to weapons of mass destruction.

The difference between Iraq and Ukraine? I do believe that the US military does make a serious and deliberate effort to maintain codes of conduct and educate American troops about proper conduct and the laws of war. Yet war is a horrible and nasty business and even the best efforts often fall short. Especially when it comes to command policies such as the extensive use of drone strikes against civilian targets. And examples such as Abu Ghraib. Russia, on the other hand, not only seems not to make such efforts. But seems to encourage cruelty as a military policy. Both in the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of civilian targets such as in Mariupol and in giving troops free rein or license to commit atrocities. War is horrible enough. But if you unleash the darker side it becomes more horrible still as we found during WW2 on the eastern front between the USSR and Germany, and the war in the Pacific against Japan.

Just like Iraq, I believe Ukraine to be an illegal war launched on false pretenses and can only hope it results in a crushing disaster for the aggressor. Not because I have anything in particular against Russia or Russians. But to serve as an object lesson so that Russia or other future aggressors think twice before abandoning peaceful means of resolving disputes and launch similar wars of aggression.

This is what the world press across two continents is saying about Ukraine today. Are they all lying and/or being manipulated? I doubt it.

[Soloist]

Okay, I get it. You are invested in this. Can you produce a picture of the area in high resolution from this open source satellite imaging? Seems to me there isn't any way to verify the images as what a commoner like myself can access is low resolution images of Bucha. My point is you have to trust that a pro-Ukrainian news source isn't fudging data.

As for the image of the Russian vehicles, how do you know those are Russian tanks and not Ukrainian tanks? because the media says so?

[temporal1]

.. “Operation Iraqi Freedom" but the media was on overdrive for pro-war rhetoric.

I see value in holding back judgement at the very least until some actual investigative elements have confirmed these claims by either side.

That being said, there isn't any neutral party in this world so regardless both sides will continue to believe what they believe.

Not everyone ignores/defies your pov.

Those who believed the West would make it as hard as possible for Ukraine/Russia to resolve this are proven correct.

This Gravitas report has bias, but points out Ukraine’s miserable position (with “patriots” and “allies.”)



Notice:
This reporter begins with reference to current problems in PAKISTAN!

[Soloist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7yIyNBMpQY&t=2s

Currently, the city employs fighters of the established special purpose regiment of the SAFARI National Police, which includes representatives of special police units, fighters of KORD and Thor, as well as specialists of the explosives service. Today, April 2, in the liberated city of Bucha, Kyiv region, special units of the National Police of Ukraine began clearing the area of ​​saboteurs and accomplices of Russian troops. Specialists of the Explosive Ordnance Disposal Service inspect the war crimes sites of the Russian Federation and seize explosives and unexploded ordnance. Law enforcement officers inspect every yard and shelter, communicate with people and provide assistance to local residents. Citizens who had to endure the horrors of the occupation are helping the police as much as possible. The police are doing everything possible to restore law and order in the liberated territories,

(google translate)

This is the town of Bucha. I see one body shown early on in the film. The city is not laying with bodies all over the place like the media suggests. Nor are there land mines every so many feet. If anyone understands Ukrainian you could likely authenticate what is going on by the conversation.