Neto wrote:
I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)
I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"
I think you are somewhat missing the point. There are two separate issues involved here. The first issue is how does an individual with an inclination towards sin achieve redemption and recovery. The second issue is what should the hiring and employment standards be for AB organizations that work with children. Where CAM went wrong is that they mixed up these two issues and because they lacked clear written standards and policies, the supervisors involved were left in the impossible position of having to make an ad-hoc judgement about JMast. They should have never been in the position to have to make that call in the first place.
It would not have been the end of the world for JMast if CAM had simply told him back in 2012. "We like you and think you are a good man. But based on your past history you simply don't meet our requirements for jobs that involve contact with children. We have a strict policy in this area and there simply are no exceptions. There are a lot of other things you can do with your life and we wish you the best." In fact, most jobs and careers basically have no unsupervised contact with children and most people go through their adult lives with very little unsupervised interaction with children with whom they are not related.
This would not have addressed anything he did prior to 2012. And maybe JMast would have gone on to find some other way to prey on children in another organization. CAM and other church-based organizations can't solve all the world's problems. But they can at least make sure their own house is in order. That is the least that all of us expect.
OK. Maybe I posted in the wrong thread. We all have "an inclination towards sin", and we are all in need of redemption. But sure, they could have done what you suggested, but they didn't. So I think I hear you saying that no Christian ministry should accept any worker who has sinned in the past, because the implication is that there is no way to tell if a confession is real or not. So, where do you suggest ministries (CAM, or any other) find workers who have never sinned (even only in their minds) by giving in to a temptation to a sexual thought? (That's not a real question. It is rhetorical - you won't find anyone like that anywhere, because all have sinned, and fall short of God's standard of holiness.) I realize that the sin of thought doesn't result in victims, but there is still sin, and where there are sinful thoughts, there is the possibility of the sinful act, resulting in victims.
I don't hear Ken saying that no Christian ministry should accept any worker who has sinned in the past. However there are some sins that carry more consequences than others. Murder or sexual abuse is going to carry more consequences and more restrictions than thinking a lustful thought about a woman or speeding while driving.
It's possible to look at the actions in a person's life and see if they match up with their confession of repentance. For example if a sex offender is repentant then they are broken with sorrow for the harm they caused the victims, they willingly accept the consequences of what they did, and they won't want to place themselves in a situation where they'll be tempted again. Let's go back to the alcoholic analogy. No it's not reasonable to expect that a former alcoholic will never be around alcohol. It's also not wise for them to think that they can be a bartender, or have their own personal bar in their house, or work in a liquor store.
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien
When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
Aslanhasheard wrote:I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?
I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)
I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"
Neto this is one of the links that that I listed in the topic that I linked to earlier in this thread. I don't know if you read any of the links that I posted but if you didn't then maybe this will provide a starting point to the question of how to determine if a confession is real. https://www.patreon.com/posts/25287330? ... uoEXh1y2Ig
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien
When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
Grace wrote:
I agree it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them. But to continue pointing out the men who made the mistakes, especially those like Stanley, who are deeply remorseful, and have expressed that, crosses the line and serves no purpose.
In order to be aware of the mistakes made it's necessary to point out which mistakes these men made. How are you going to be aware of the mistakes if they're not pointed out?
To be fair, Grace did say that "it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them". As I understand her statement here, it is pointing to the ones who made the mistakes (instead of a focus on the mistakes made) that is the approach she is calling to task.
So I read the letter Trudy just posted. As I said over in the changing the culture thread, who comes to mind when you think of good-hearted people who want to see change, but are not *perfectly* healed themselves? Others are saying many similar things about her as this Mr. Yoder, if that is his real name...she is bitter, to her it is the collective fault of CA's, she is no longer Mennonite enough, etc.
People cannot say those things of me, I think. But I am far from being perfectly healed, either! I have tried to do things "the Mennonite way" even when it was very hard. In your opinions, what things make it *hard for folks to see* there are endemic things in Mennonite culture that--I am not saying *cause*--but make it *easier* for evil to thrive. We ought to work on those things. But we need to name and understand the factors.
I am willing to stick my neck out, but even after all these years, I don't always really understand this culture. I just see some things. Right now I struggle to understand why the CA people don't rise up and say, Trudy has some uncomfortable truths to say; let's be Bereans and listen. What is the hang-up here?
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Take the position that you're wrong, and your goal is to be less wrong over time. --Elon Musk
mercysfree wrote:So I read the letter Trudy just posted. As I said over in the changing the culture thread, who comes to mind when you think of good-hearted people who want to see change, but are not *perfectly* healed themselves? Others are saying many similar things about her as this Mr. Yoder, if that is his real name...she is bitter, to her it is the collective fault of CA's, she is no longer Mennonite enough, etc.
People cannot say those things of me, I think. But I am far from being perfectly healed, either! I have tried to do things "the Mennonite way" even when it was very hard. In your opinions, what things make it *hard for folks to see* there are endemic things in Mennonite culture that--I am not saying *cause*--but make it *easier* for evil to thrive. We ought to work on those things. But we need to name and understand the factors.
I am willing to stick my neck out, but even after all these years, I don't always really understand this culture. I just see some things. Right now I struggle to understand why the CA people don't rise up and say, Trudy has some uncomfortable truths to say; let's be Bereans and listen. What is the hang-up here?
Maybe somebody will move this to the right thread...
Many traditional anabaptist men will not accept anything Trudy Metzger says because they believe she has stepped outside of her God ordained role as a wife, mother, and keeper at home.
mercysfree wrote:So I read the letter Trudy just posted. As I said over in the changing the culture thread, who comes to mind when you think of good-hearted people who want to see change, but are not *perfectly* healed themselves? Others are saying many similar things about her as this Mr. Yoder, if that is his real name...she is bitter, to her it is the collective fault of CA's, she is no longer Mennonite enough, etc.
People cannot say those things of me, I think. But I am far from being perfectly healed, either! I have tried to do things "the Mennonite way" even when it was very hard. In your opinions, what things make it *hard for folks to see* there are endemic things in Mennonite culture that--I am not saying *cause*--but make it *easier* for evil to thrive. We ought to work on those things. But we need to name and understand the factors.
I am willing to stick my neck out, but even after all these years, I don't always really understand this culture. I just see some things. Right now I struggle to understand why the CA people don't rise up and say, Trudy has some uncomfortable truths to say; let's be Bereans and listen. What is the hang-up here?
I have no idea how or if a post can be moved but I'm going to copy and paste this over in the culture thread.
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien
When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
