The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[Neto]

Grace,

It’s pretty important to (a) understand how this happened and went on for a decade, and (b) change things so that it does not happen again.

I agree it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them. But to continue pointing out the men who made the mistakes, especially those like Stanley, who are deeply remorseful, and have expressed that, crosses the line and serves no purpose.

In order to be aware of the mistakes made it's necessary to point out which mistakes these men made. How are you going to be aware of the mistakes if they're not pointed out?

To be fair, Grace did say that "it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them". As I understand her statement here, it is pointing to the ones who made the mistakes (instead of a focus on the mistakes made) that is the approach she is calling to task.

[Grace]

To be fair, Grace did say that "it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them". As I understand her statement here, it is pointing to the ones who made the mistakes (instead of a focus on the mistakes made) that is the approach she is calling to task.

Thanks Neto. You are correct in your interpretation of what I wrote. There is no harm in shedding light on the mistakes made, as a preventative measure for the future. But to point out and name those who made the mistakes, serves no purpose, and as in Stanley's case, it appears like kicking a man when he is down.

[Aurien]

I agree it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them. But to continue pointing out the men who made the mistakes, especially those like Stanley, who are deeply remorseful, and have expressed that, crosses the line and serves no purpose.

In order to be aware of the mistakes made it's necessary to point out which mistakes these men made. How are you going to be aware of the mistakes if they're not pointed out?

To be fair, Grace did say that "it is important to be aware of the mistakes made as a preventative measure against repeating them". As I understand her statement here, it is pointing to the ones who made the mistakes (instead of a focus on the mistakes made) that is the approach she is calling to task.

I think it's going to be hard to be aware of the mistakes made without pointing out the men who made them. Without questioning HOW it happened we aren't going to know how to prevent it from happening again. I don't mean something like, "See! Look at the mistakes that Stanley Fox made! How terrible of him!" Rather something like, "Men who knew about the sexual abuse didn't report it because (insert reason here). Here's why that happened and here's what needs to happen so that those mistakes aren't repeated again."

I completely understand why some people (myself included) are having a hard time understanding why these men didn't pursue this further. To those who have experienced sexual abuse or are close to someone who has experienced it it's nearly unthinkable that people knew but assumed that a show of repentance was sufficient. There are also others who are having a hard time with the hypocrisy shown in allowing Jeriah Mast to remain on the mission field (whether people knew he sexually abused children or thought he just had consensual homosexual relations) when others were sent home for lesser offenses.
There was hypocrisy shown, and there was ignorance. I don't know whether any of that ignorance was willful of if any of these 3 men truly didn't understand the seriousness of sexual abuse. In any case people NEED to be educated so that the same mistakes aren't made again.

[Aurien]

I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?

[Neto]

I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?

I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)

I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"

[Aurien]

I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?

I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)

I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"

Some of the links I posted in this topic might help answer some of your questions.
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 620#p56620

As far as dealing with thoughts then I like the articles below.
https://www.gotquestions.org/lustful-thoughts.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/take-control-thoughts.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/intrusive-thoughts.html

[Neto]

I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?

I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)

I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"

Some of the links I posted in this topic might help answer some of your questions.
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 620#p56620

As far as dealing with thoughts then I like the articles below.
https://www.gotquestions.org/lustful-thoughts.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/take-control-thoughts.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/intrusive-thoughts.html

I apparently did not phrase my post clearly. I posted the question regarding proper perceptions or discernment of a confession to aid discussion in respect to avoiding the deception than apparently took place in the case of the confessions mentioned here. The other question was intended to be understood as rhetorical - meaning that it is not reasonable to tell a person that he or she must simply avoid all situations where there might be a temptation to commit an illegal or immoral act. My main point with this is that the proper point of prevention for any type of immorality is far before the point at which an actual act is commenced, or even seriously considered or contemplated. At that point, a sin has already been committed. I am not bypassing concern over the victims - I just think that the best way to prevent more victims from suffering this horrible insult is to help the possible perpetrators. (I am saying this in the context of Christian ministry. I fully realize that it is not possible to expect to be able to 'help' every potential abuser - the ones who are not Christians.)

[Ken]

I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?

I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)

I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"

I think you are somewhat missing the point. There are two separate issues involved here. The first issue is how does an individual with an inclination towards sin achieve redemption and recovery. The second issue is what should the hiring and employment standards be for AB organizations that work with children. Where CAM went wrong is that they mixed up these two issues and because they lacked clear written standards and policies, the supervisors involved were left in the impossible position of having to make an ad-hoc judgement about JMast. They should have never been in the position to have to make that call in the first place.

It would not have been the end of the world for JMast if CAM had simply told him back in 2012. "We like you and think you are a good man. But based on your past history you simply don't meet our requirements for jobs that involve contact with children. We have a strict policy in this area and there simply are no exceptions. There are a lot of other things you can do with your life and we wish you the best." In fact, most jobs and careers basically have no unsupervised contact with children and most people go through their adult lives with very little unsupervised interaction with children with whom they are not related.

This would not have addressed anything he did prior to 2012. And maybe JMast would have gone on to find some other way to prey on children in another organization. CAM and other church-based organizations can't solve all the world's problems. But they can at least make sure their own house is in order. That is the least that all of us expect.

[Neto]

I think pretty much all of us agree that mistakes were made in how Jeriah Mast's incidents of sexual abuse were handled. So how do people learn from the mistakes made and go on from here? What needs to happen for people to learn to recognize, prevent, and properly deal with all forms of sexual abuse? What are concrete changes that need to be implemented at a personal, church, and organizational level?

I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)

I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"

I think you are somewhat missing the point. There are two separate issues involved here. The first issue is how does an individual with an inclination towards sin achieve redemption and recovery. The second issue is what should the hiring and employment standards be for AB organizations that work with children. Where CAM went wrong is that they mixed up these two issues and because they lacked clear written standards and policies, the supervisors involved were left in the impossible position of having to make an ad-hoc judgement about JMast. They should have never been in the position to have to make that call in the first place.

It would not have been the end of the world for JMast if CAM had simply told him back in 2012. "We like you and think you are a good man. But based on your past history you simply don't meet our requirements for jobs that involve contact with children. We have a strict policy in this area and there simply are no exceptions. There are a lot of other things you can do with your life and we wish you the best." In fact, most jobs and careers basically have no unsupervised contact with children and most people go through their adult lives with very little unsupervised interaction with children with whom they are not related.

This would not have addressed anything he did prior to 2012. And maybe JMast would have gone on to find some other way to prey on children in another organization. CAM and other church-based organizations can't solve all the world's problems. But they can at least make sure their own house is in order. That is the least that all of us expect.

OK. Maybe I posted in the wrong thread. We all have "an inclination towards sin", and we are all in need of redemption. But sure, they could have done what you suggested, but they didn't. So I think I hear you saying that no Christian ministry should accept any worker who has sinned in the past, because the implication is that there is no way to tell if a confession is real or not. So, where do you suggest ministries (CAM, or any other) find workers who have never sinned (even only in their minds) by giving in to a temptation to a sexual thought? (That's not a real question. It is rhetorical - you won't find anyone like that anywhere, because all have sinned, and fall short of God's standard of holiness.) I realize that the sin of thought doesn't result in victims, but there is still sin, and where there are sinful thoughts, there is the possibility of the sinful act, resulting in victims.

[Ken]

I wonder what can be learned from this in respect to knowing how to determine if a confession is real, and how to monitor behavior after a confession. I know lots of people are saying that a person with this type of sin offense should never be placed in any situation where opportunity to offend again is present. But statements like "If you are a recovered alcoholic then don't go into a bar." are not helpful, because that isn't the only place where alcoholic beverages are served or available, and true recovery is deeper than that. How many of the restaurants where a person goes do not serve liquor of some type? This township is dry, but most areas aren't. (I remember once in a big city where when we arrived around noon time, and my Dad drove around to one place after another, looking for one that did not serve liquor, and after more than an hour of this, we just had donuts. Not that my dad had ever drank - he just had that conviction of not going into a place like that.)

I'm looking at this in a broader context. Take a man who is tempted with lust when he is around other women. What's he to do, stay away from any place where women might be present? I'm also trying to look at this case in the context of where the SIN actually starts, which is WAY before a child is "groomed" and abused, or an illicit relationship is initiated. It starts in the mind, with a thought, and a lingering glance. "Don't look at it, Don't touch it!"

I think you are somewhat missing the point. There are two separate issues involved here. The first issue is how does an individual with an inclination towards sin achieve redemption and recovery. The second issue is what should the hiring and employment standards be for AB organizations that work with children. Where CAM went wrong is that they mixed up these two issues and because they lacked clear written standards and policies, the supervisors involved were left in the impossible position of having to make an ad-hoc judgement about JMast. They should have never been in the position to have to make that call in the first place.

It would not have been the end of the world for JMast if CAM had simply told him back in 2012. "We like you and think you are a good man. But based on your past history you simply don't meet our requirements for jobs that involve contact with children. We have a strict policy in this area and there simply are no exceptions. There are a lot of other things you can do with your life and we wish you the best." In fact, most jobs and careers basically have no unsupervised contact with children and most people go through their adult lives with very little unsupervised interaction with children with whom they are not related.

This would not have addressed anything he did prior to 2012. And maybe JMast would have gone on to find some other way to prey on children in another organization. CAM and other church-based organizations can't solve all the world's problems. But they can at least make sure their own house is in order. That is the least that all of us expect.

OK. Maybe I posted in the wrong thread. We all have "an inclination towards sin", and we are all in need of redemption. But sure, they could have done what you suggested, but they didn't. So I think I hear you saying that no Christian ministry should accept any worker who has sinned in the past, because the implication is that there is no way to tell if a confession is real or not. So, where do you suggest ministries (CAM, or any other) find workers who have never sinned (even only in their minds) by giving in to a temptation to a sexual thought? (That's not a real question. It is rhetorical - you won't find anyone like that anywhere, because all have sinned, and fall short of God's standard of holiness.) I realize that the sin of thought doesn't result in victims, but there is still sin, and where there are sinful thoughts, there is the possibility of the sinful act, resulting in victims.

Again you are completely missing the point. This is not even a question of sin and redemption. It is simply a question of job qualifications. Church organizations who hire nurses no doubt expect that their candidates have the proper training and academic credentials to be nurses and have the proper nursing licenses. Church organizations who hire accountants do doubt expect that their candidates are qualifed and trained in accounting. Church organizations who hire HVAC technicians to replace their HVAC systems no doubt expect them to be qualified. This is basic and ordinary stuff and not even worthy of comment. I'm simply suggesting that for jobs that involve contact and supervision of children, church organizations should properly screen candidates for any past history of child molestation and abuse. And that a basic qualification for any jobs working with children is that you have no past history of molesting or abusing children. Period. And that any history of child abuse of any kind should be an absolute disqualifier for those sorts of jobs. Period. No exceptions. That is how public schools operate. And if CAM had had that sort of policy in place we would not be having this discussion. And the careers of reportedly good men who "made the wrong call" would not now be in jeopardy.

You don't need to have "witch hunts" and secret "sex abuse watch lists" and all that sort of thing that is being addressed and discussed here. These are all happening in response to organizations that did not have proper standards and policies in place. You simply create a code of professional conduct and ethics for all employees of AB organizations that work with children (churches, schools, summer camps, orphanages etc.) both in the US and abroad. You develop a detailed past history questionaire that all candidates must answer about their past history. You establish standards on how that sort of information is shared between organizations. And you simply have a zero tolerance policy with no exceptions. The next time you have someone like JMast who would have to have lied on their background screening to even be hired. You immediately dismiss them the moment it comes to light. They can be redeemed and have their life turned around. Doesn't matter. They can have a productive and fulfilling life doing one of the other 99% of all jobs that don't involve unsupervised contact with children.