Gender confusion

[Ken]

Ken, no one claimed schools are performing surgeries, that’s absurd.

You can scroll upstream and find Josh making that exact claim. I was responding to Josh's wild exaggerations. His exact quote addressed to me was:

What is at question here is whether or not schools and clinics should be providing sex change surgery and pills to 12 year olds (or younger) and hiding it from their parents. Do you think that’s a good thing?

Like I said, I'm not here to defend all medical practices when it comes to transgender medicine. I was specifically asked for my opinion and I gave it. To which Josh responded with his wild assertion about schools providing medical services to 12 year olds. Feel free to scroll up and see what I actually wrote and respond to if if you wish. Or don't. It doesn't matter. I thought I was pretty clear about my opinions. Do you need me to reiterate? Or are you going to continue to tilt at things I never actually wrote about?

Why don't you look at what I ACTUALLY wrote on this subject and tell me where you disagree, rather than tossing out all these examples that don't address anything I wrote.

[temporal1]

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:28 pm
What is at question here is whether or not schools and clinics should be providing sex change surgery and pills to 12 year olds (or younger) and hiding it from their parents. Do you think that’s a good thing?

The only wild assertion here is that Josh meant schools would be performing physical surgeries.
A rhetorical (gotcha) argument could be made, at the expense of loss of credibility of the accuser.

gov policies, including gov schools and extending to “health” care providers, should not be in the business of teaching/leading children to lie to get what they want, and/or what they are groomed to want, esp not lie to their parents.

even in the recent past, crimes+sins were recognized and prevented/punished, not normalized thru force of the sword.
esp those crimes+sins perpetrated upon children and minors. “contributing to the delinquency of a minor” used to be a crime.

childhood can be painful. waiting is a particularly difficult challenge for children/teens. i remember well.
however, it’s part of the maturing process. self-restraint is a gold standard of emotional maturity.

today’s instant gratification “adults” are doing untold, unprecendented harm on a grand scale to children and minors.
much of it via taxpayer dollars in institutions where minors are literally sitting ducks with little or no recourse.

invest in millstone stock?! $$$

The Millstone Company
https://themillstonecompany.com/

[Josh]

Actually, Ken, schools do provide medical care (I assume your school has a school nurse) and have been caught trying to help children engage in a sex change without their parents’ knowledge. Stop being obtuse and acting like I claimed schools are running surgeries.

The question here is if medical providers and schools should hide things from the parents of 12 year olds… or 4 year olds. My answer is “no”.

[Ken]

Actually, Ken, schools do provide medical care (I assume your school has a school nurse) and have been caught trying to help children engage in a sex change without their parents’ knowledge. Stop being obtuse and acting like I claimed schools are running surgeries.

The question here is if medical providers and schools should hide things from the parents of 12 year olds… or 4 year olds. My answer is “no”.

I challenge you to show us a single example of schools providing any medications to 12 year old students without the parents knowledge or consent, much less hormonal therapy. At least in the United States. I have no idea what happens in other countries. School nurses will provide medication to students during the school day ONLY after the parent provides specific detailed request forms that must be signed by the student's physician. And the parents have to provide the actual medications. I have had to go through that process in order for one of my daughters to be provided with asthma medication at school. It looks like this: https://tvc.org/wp-content/uploads/ever ... l-4-19.pdf

And I very seriously doubt that any schools are ever involved in administering hormonal therapy as those medications are not so time-dependent as to be required to be administered at school rather than home.

The actual questions regarding this issue are exactly as I laid them out. Namely:

• When and under which criteria should the state intervene and over-rule the private medical decisions of parents and families?
• When and under which criteria should children be able to become emancipated from the control of their parents for medical reasons or any other reasons?

I shared my views on both of these questions. I haven't seen anyone here provide any well-argued alternative positions. What are your positions on those two questions?

[Josh]

When and under which criteria should the state intervene and over-rule the private medical decisions of parents and families?
When and under which criteria should children be able to become emancipated from the control of their parents for medical reasons or any other reasons?

Not at age 4 or 12, that’s for sure

[Ken]

• When and under which criteria should the state intervene and over-rule the private medical decisions of parents and families?
• When and under which criteria should children be able to become emancipated from the control of their parents for medical reasons or any other reasons?

Not at age 4 or 12, that’s for sure

So no then? You don't have coherent and consistent answers to these two questions?

[Josh]

• When and under which criteria should the state intervene and over-rule the private medical decisions of parents and families?
• When and under which criteria should children be able to become emancipated from the control of their parents for medical reasons or any other reasons?

Not at age 4 or 12, that’s for sure

So no then? You don't have coherent and consistent answers to these two questions?

State should almost never intervene unless parental rights are terminated for lawful reasons (e.g. both parents in prison for murdering one of their children)

Children shouldn’t need to be emancipated at young ages. At older ages of 16 or 17 it is reasonable but only if a child demonstrates they can fully work for and provide for themself.

Medical providers and schools should not be in charge of trying to emancipate children from their parents.

We have family courts and family judges and the foster care system already.

[Ken]

Not at age 4 or 12, that’s for sure

So no then? You don't have coherent and consistent answers to these two questions?

State should almost never intervene unless parental rights are terminated for lawful reasons (e.g. both parents in prison for murdering one of their children)

Children shouldn’t need to be emancipated at young ages. At older ages of 16 or 17 it is reasonable but only if a child demonstrates they can fully work for and provide for themself.

Medical providers and schools should not be in charge of trying to emancipate children from their parents.

We have family courts and family judges and the foster care system already.

So your positions are almost exactly the same as my positions when asked to comment on this thread. Namely that:

1. The state should stay completely out of the private medical decisions of parents and families absent extreme life or death situations, and

2. We already have an existing process in place for older children to emancipate themselves from control of their parents. We do not need to reinvent that wheel.

[Josh]

Yes. The issue here is the state is inserting itself into families by encouraging young children to “transition”.

[HondurasKeiser]

Like I said, I'm not here to defend all medical practices when it comes to transgender medicine. I was specifically asked for my opinion and I gave it. To which Josh responded with his wild assertion about schools providing medical services to 12 year olds. Feel free to scroll up and see what I actually wrote and respond to if if you wish. Or don't. It doesn't matter. I thought I was pretty clear about my opinions. Do you need me to reiterate? Or are you going to continue to tilt at things I never actually wrote about?

Why don't you look at what I ACTUALLY wrote on this subject and tell me where you disagree, rather than tossing out all these examples that don't address anything I wrote.

You actually wrote the following:

"I don't see any evidence that...hospitals are doing it for 12 year olds as you claimed."

You may not be a fan of the idea and I didn't mean to imply that you were for hormone therapy and chest surgeries, but just because you don't see the evidence, does not mean it isn't happening. There's plenty of evidence around the internet and anecdotally e.g. conversations with medical professionals and teachers. Nellie Bowles highlights once example at Boston Children's Hospital in her newsletter that came out this morning:

One of our country’s most prestigious hospitals for children recently released a series of slick, beautifully produced videos advertising their services for gender non-conforming patients.

The services include “gender affirming hysterectomies,” “chest reconstruction surgery” (aka double mastectomies)—all the classics of the modern pediatrician’s office. They put out videos with doctors saying things like “a good portion of children do know as early as from the womb” and “we see a variety of young children all the way down to ages 2 and 3.” Another video says that “playing with the opposite gender toys” is an indication of transness.

The media is now pretending that this is all overblown. None of this happens to anyone under 18. But the hospital’s own website and research betrays this. The hospital’s website said it would perform vaginoplasties on children beginning at 17-years-old (that’s since been deleted). And there’s this study produced by the hospital staff on the 65 double-mastectomy surgeries they performed on minors, the youngest being 15.

All of this is well within the new recommended practices: The World Professional Association for Transgender Health, the leading advocacy group for transgender surgeries, lowered the recommended age for “gender-affirming” castrations and hysterectomies to 17.

You also actually said that you think that: "We already have a legal process under which minors can emancipate themselves from control of their parents. Generally it starts at age 16. I think that same standard and process should be applied to medical decisions."
Implying that a 16 year old that wants to undergo medical procedures, hormonal or otherwise, to transition; should be able to do so irrespective of their parents' wishes. I am not tilting at imaginary dragons - you actually wrote that and I find such a prospect horrifying.