Pope Francis passes on

[JohnL]

I will simply share, word for word, what the Bishop of Rome said regarding the Reformation.

[Begin Quote]
"I think Martin Luther's intentions weren't misguided; he was a reformer. Perhaps some of his methods weren't sound, but at that time... the Church wasn't exactly a model to follow: there was corruption, worldliness, attachment to money and power. And that's why he protested. He was intelligent, and he took a step forward to justify why he did what he did. And today, Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants and everyone else, agree on the Doctrine of Justification: on this very important point, he wasn't wrong.
Luther developed a remedy for the Church, which later consolidated into a state of affairs, a discipline, a way of believing, a way of doing things, a liturgical form. But he wasn't alone: ​​there were also Zwingli and Calvin, and who was behind them? The princes, "cuius regio eius religio." We have to place ourselves in the history of that time, which isn't easy to understand... then things have moved on.
Today, dialogue is very Well, I think the document on Justification is one of the richest and most profound ecumenical documents. There are divisions, but they also depend on the churches... Diversity is what has perhaps done us the most harm, and now we are trying to get back on the path to finding each other after 500 years. I think we have to pray together, pray. This is why prayer is important. Second: work for the poor, the persecuted, for the many people who suffer, for refugees. Work together and pray together. And let theologians study and search together. But this is a long, very long road.
Once, jokingly, I said: "I know when full unity will come." —When? — "The day after the coming of the Son of Man." In the meantime, let us pray, loving one another, and working together."
[End Quote]

Whether you agree with his words or not, this is a much-needed conversation. I recall the words of the Apostle Paul to the Church of Corinth, who in their immaturity and carnality said, "I am of Paul! I am of Apollos! I am of Cephas (Peter)! I am of Christ!" (1 Corinthians 1:12):
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and can understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And though I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I reasoned as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a glass dimly, but then face to face. Now we know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now abide faith, hope, and love, these three; but the greatest of these is love (1 Corinthians 13:1-3, 11-13).
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

There’s a lot of good thoughts here to chew on.

I'm surprised he hung on this long. It feels like he had the will to stay alive to see one last Easter Sunday.

Francis had pneumonia 67 years ago and has had lung difficulties ever since. It is amazing he lived as long as he did.

We would say it’s by the grace of God.

[temporal1]

In Mennonet, this is current events. If this was a Catholic forum, it would surely be Politics.

Today, it will be POLITICS. Pray for Catholic souls, for God’s will.

From memory, Mr Jim once said, the C Church is THE BIG TARGET for (organized political activists) in the Church and out.
He believed, if the C Church falls, that does not bode well for Christianity. i’d never thought of it in that way. Not at all.
i wouldn’t care to test it.

From the little i’ve read, prior and now following his death, Pope Francis “stacked the deck” with liberal appointees, presumably to further his own heart for liberals in the Church going forward, esp wrt to the next pope. Of course, “the usual suspects” in domestic+global politics considered Pope Francis ‘way too conservative, they’re out with bells on, to advance their priorities.
(i daresay no need to detail.) WIM is a contentious part of their package.

i believe in miracles.
i would enjoy witnessing C.Sarah as pope, to see how the world would respond. (esp Europe.)

i see C.Sarah as one who could effectively inspire (sinners) to seek Truth, self-reflection, personal accountability, higher paths.
to move away from “the end justifies the means”.

C.Sarah isn’t the only possible conservative. He’s one i’m more familiar with over years.
It won’t be an instant decision. It’s very early. Too early to be thinking about. My mother would warn it’s not decent, there needs to be a period of mourning. Following anyone’s death.

Lib-biased source:

Newsweek / “Who is Cardinal Robert Sarah? Favorite of Conservatives as Anti-Woke Pope”
https://www.newsweek.com/robert-sarah-p ... ve-2062345

.. Sarah is known for his staunch opposition to liberal theology, gender ideology, and what he sees as the moral decline of Western secularism.

Sarah has warned that Western secularism—including abortion, euthanasia, pornography, and gender ideology—are eroding the Christian foundations of Western civilization. "There is no 'homosexual problem' in the Church. There is a problem of sins and infidelity," he told The Catholic Herald in a 2019 interview. ..

people are betting on the next pope?!

[Ken]

108 of the 135 Cardinals in the conclave were appointed by Pope Francis. That amounts to 80% of the voting members of the Conclave.

Which suggests that whoever they pick will likely follow in his footsteps to some extent while carving out their own voice as every pope does. But likely won't represent some dramatic change of course for the Church.

[JohnH]

Of the 136 under the age of 80, the mode is 79 years old; the median is 72 years old; the mean is 70. Are we sure the "college of cardinals" isn't actually just a nursing-home bus whose passengers got lost on the way back from whatever the Italian equivalent of the Old Country Buffet is?

[Ken]

Of the 136 under the age of 80, the mode is 79 years old; the median is 72 years old; the mean is 70. Are we sure the "college of cardinals" isn't actually just a nursing-home bus whose passengers got lost on the way back from whatever the Italian equivalent of the Old Country Buffet is?

You don't get appointed Cardinal fresh out of seminary at age 25. You work your way up to that level of church authority and responsibility after decades and decades. And probably not until you have proven your orthodoxy and institutional loyalty for decades.

The other issue is that unless you create new titular churches, then you don't appoint a new cardinal until the old one dies or retires. They don't have term limits. Just like the pope and Supreme Court justices, they are appointed for life.

They don't actually do that much day to day administrative work. That is mostly done by archbishops. Some cardinals are archbishops as well. But a lot are more like a House of Lords.

[barnhart]

108 of the 135 Cardinals in the conclave were appointed by Pope Francis. That amounts to 80% of the voting members of the Conclave.

Which suggests that whoever they pick will likely follow in his footsteps to some extent while carving out their own voice as every pope does. But likely won't represent some dramatic change of course for the Church.

You don't see a course correction between Benedict and Francis?

[temporal1]

Of the 136 under the age of 80, the mode is 79 years old; the median is 72 years old; the mean is 70. Are we sure the "college of cardinals" isn't actually just a nursing-home bus whose passengers got lost on the way back from whatever the Italian equivalent of the Old Country Buffet is?

i’m intrigued with the way ancient cultures and religions respect and honor their elders in ways that can seem odd to youthful and youth-centric U.S. On the world stage, i wonder if other countries may think of the U.S. as a wild teenager? i suspect so.
An important teenager, but teen, nevertheless.

i’ve noticed this from young, living and going to school in a culturally diverse area.
When my husband was so ill, we lived next door to a young S Korean couple with 2 small boys. Even with the language barrier, they managed to show great respect each time we saw them. Without fail. My husband eventually was in a wheelchair.

i thought many times, our youthful culture has much to learn.

Being pope is for life. It’s principally about spiritual guidance (??)

Unfortunately, i’ve read not all are interested in one pope to span decades.
A sad way to think of it.

i’m apprehensive.
Reading about Pope Frances’ input through appointments, combined with his impatience with conservatives, not to mention his treatment of conservatives in the Church. i didn’t follow closely, but my impression was he was (unkind) to both C.Burke and C.Sarah. i didn’t sense any pushback or resistance from either. at all. They both remained faithful and unshaken.

i’m a total low-information outsider!

Maybe JayP will stop by.

[JohnH]

Ken,

You are aware only those under the age of 80 vote, right?

[barnhart]

I have no idea who the Catholic Church will choose but if politically conservative americans are looking for a pope to buttress their culture wars, I suspect they may be disappointed. The ideology behind the current American conservatism is decades old but the Catholic ideology is measured in millennia, the two will not always pair up. Catholic doctrine has traditions influenced by culture wars hundreds of years ago like labor rights and immigration the will not prove satisfactory for the American right.

[Ken]

Ken,

You are aware only those under the age of 80 vote, right?

Yes, of the 135 (or 136?) who are under 80 and eligible to vote, 80% were appointed by Francis.

My point was that you don't get young cardinals. They are pretty much all old.