The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[Sienna]

I am positive no untrained medical person from CAM ever performed heart surgery. To even suggest that is a distortion.

I was merely responding to your post

Are you confusing me with someone else ?

My apologies. I was responding to the post by "Wade," and not suggesting for a moment that CAM had anyone doing this.

[Sienna]

I'm curious why you think CAM has a difficult time attracting trained professionals?

I am not answering for CAM but my thoughts would be:

To a child of God - character is more important than credentials. And therefore, even in our mistakes and inability to discern properly every spirit at times, I would be looking for a follower of Christ with integrity, humbleness, work ethic, sincerity, compassion and etc.
Experience and credentials are important too, but all the training in the world is not of more value than someone of no training who is always honest and truthful. Not to say I would put an honest person into a situation where they would obviously harm another because of their ignorance, but I'd also have trouble putting a talented trained person who is dishonest, deceiving, and evil in that position too.

Unfortunately, my experience is that trained professionals can expect respect because they hold a certificate and knowledge and therefore could easily not be attracted to a charity that is looking for humble sincerity and not esteeming ourselves higher than others.

As I said previously, if I go for heart surgery give me the training! (Why make these mutually exclusive?)

[Sienna]

I'm curious why you think CAM has a difficult time attracting trained professionals?

I am not answering for CAM but my thoughts would be:

To a child of God - character is more important than credentials. And therefore, even in our mistakes and inability to discern properly every spirit at times, I would be looking for a follower of Christ with integrity, humbleness, work ethic, sincerity, compassion and etc.
Experience and credentials are important too, but all the training in the world is not of more value than someone of no training who is always honest and truthful. Not to say I would put an honest person into a situation where they would obviously harm another because of their ignorance, but I'd also have trouble putting a talented trained person who is dishonest, deceiving, and evil in that position too.

Unfortunately, my experience is that trained professionals can expect respect because they hold a certificate and knowledge and therefore could easily not be attracted to a charity that is looking for humble sincerity and not esteeming ourselves higher than others.

I believe in a different post you mentioned your background is not cultural Mennonite. As such, I can appreciate what you're saying. I worked for a bit of time with some atheists and agnostics who had degrees but no virtue. Conversely, most of those close to me would not be considered "professional," or have professional training. I would simply like to see the good qualities in the Anabaptist culture be coupled with the proper training.

[Wade]

I'm curious why you think CAM has a difficult time attracting trained professionals?

I am not answering for CAM but my thoughts would be:

To a child of God - character is more important than credentials. And therefore, even in our mistakes and inability to discern properly every spirit at times, I would be looking for a follower of Christ with integrity, humbleness, work ethic, sincerity, compassion and etc.
Experience and credentials are important too, but all the training in the world is not of more value than someone of no training who is always honest and truthful. Not to say I would put an honest person into a situation where they would obviously harm another because of their ignorance, but I'd also have trouble putting a talented trained person who is dishonest, deceiving, and evil in that position too.

Unfortunately, my experience is that trained professionals can expect respect because they hold a certificate and knowledge and therefore could easily not be attracted to a charity that is looking for humble sincerity and not esteeming ourselves higher than others.

I believe in a different post you mentioned your background is not cultural Mennonite. As such, I can appreciate what you're saying. I worked for a bit of time with some atheists and agnostics who had degrees but no virtue. Conversely, most of those close to me would not be considered "professional," or have professional training. I would simply like to see the good qualities in the Anabaptist culture be coupled with the proper training.

Correct, my background for nearly 26 years was that of an atheist. I never knew Mennonites or Christian's with that degree of virtue even existed until I was 29. I am now 36 and still learning to follow Christ.

[Judas Maccabeus]

CA are almost proud of eschewing proper education and training. Our ways are better, and who needs a degree for that??

I don't know where you are from but the area I live in (Lancaster, PA.) That statement is NOT true. When you make blanket statements about conservative Anabaptist's, you are speaking about ALL of them.

This thread is turning into distortions and gross exaggerations.

I'm curious why you think CAM has a difficult time attracting trained professionals?

It is not just CAM and it is not just now. The mission I served under in the 90s had a real problem recruiting healthcare professionals. One of the reasons it that MDs and even some advanced practice RNs have school debt that can't be paid off with the salaries they offer. Some mission boards exclude those with debt entirely.

The other problem is age. Seldom are MDs who have done a residency under 30 when they are available, even later if they have paid off school debt. By thank, their language ability has begun to decline.

Inability to recruit staff was one of the reasons the mission my wife and I served under transferred our hospital out of mission control. It was a sad day.

J.M.

[I Timothy]

I don't know where you are from but the area I live in (Lancaster, PA.) That statement is NOT true. When you make blanket statements about conservative Anabaptist's, you are speaking about ALL of them.

This thread is turning into distortions and gross exaggerations.

I believe the point I Timothy is making is that the solution is really quite simple. It is for conservative Mennonites to go get the proper training and credentials. There really is no excuse for this. Those from the U.S. are among the wealthiest populations of the world. What hinders them? I Timothy seems to be making the point that their pride hinders them. I would agree.

How many conservative Mennonites do you personally know who are practicing medicine without "proper credentials," and how many of them do you know well enough to be able to fairly and accurately assess their motive? There are probably a few out there, but is it fair to tar all of them with the same brush?

My wife can attest to children who have died at the hands of untrained medical professionals in a large Anabaptist community. They would come in through the emergency room as a last resort. And the local birth clinic had some really strange cases that I would hear about, I have no idea why husbands would not insist on proper care for their families. There is really no way to regulate these facilities, since they are not licensed the licensing boards can not take punitive action. The government takes it as a freedom of religion issue.

While at one of my rotation sites I had mentioned to my preceptor I had just returned from Haiti during break doing some clinic work. He looked at me and said, "If you really want to help poor people with medical care all you have to do is drive an hour from here and help the Amish. They are very poor and lack access to proper medical care."

[I Timothy]

I'm curious why you think CAM has a difficult time attracting trained professionals?

all the training in the world is not of more value than someone of no training who is always honest and truthful.

Well, as previously said, if I go for heart surgery I'll take the training.

I don't always understand the integrity vs training argument. For example if a nurse of integrity is asked a medical question, isn't the proper response, "I am sorry I do not have the training to be able to answer that question." In other words, having integrity means to understand your limits and not to overstate your credentials.

[Wade]

all the training in the world is not of more value than someone of no training who is always honest and truthful.

Well, as previously said, if I go for heart surgery I'll take the training.

I don't always understand the integrity vs training argument. For example if a nurse of integrity is asked a medical question, isn't the proper response, "I am sorry I do not have the training to be able to answer that question." In other words, having integrity means to understand your limits and not to overstate your credentials.

Does this make sense: A person who is living in unrepented sin has no place in a Christian organization.

[Josh]

"If you really want to help poor people with medical care all you have to do is drive an hour from here and help the Amish. They are very poor and lack access to proper medical care."

The Amish are not poor (many are quite wealthy and they’re certainly better off than the average one of their neighbours). They also have access to world class medical care. The largest Amish population is in northeast Ohio, in the shadow of the Cleveland Clinic system, one of the best in the world, and with local routine care and preventative care facilities so close they’re reachable by horse and buggy or by a $20 ride from one of the many Amish drivers in the area.

In fact, they’re so well off they’re helping fund building a clinic in Mt. Eaton to deal with unique genetic conditions and do genetic counselling.

They have a comprehensive safety net leaving them better taken care of than many of their neighbours, through their mutual aid plans. And it shows in health outcomes. (See the latest issue of JAPAS that focused on health care.)

[Wade]

"To a child of God - character is more important than credentials. And therefore, even in our mistakes and inability to discern properly every spirit at times, I would be looking for a follower of Christ with integrity, humbleness, work ethic, sincerity, compassion and etc."


Why make these mutually exclusive? Why not look for qualified individuals with these virtues?

As far as I can tell, I don't think anyone is encouraging that if a qualified individual was available with these virtues that they would be passed up. I also understand that it is appropriate to only hire those that have voluntarily submitted themselves under the accountability of a biblical local body that would fit into a similar belief for the sake of a consistent witness to the kingdom of God.

There are multitudes of Christians who are trained professionals that have integrity, humbleness, work ethic, sincerity, and compassion. I'm decrying the fact that CA's are not among the multitudes that have both.

I think my second sentence above answers this. And if what you say is true that there are so many of these people then they could easily establish a much better organization and would have.

Are you equating the EL in CAM with these "virtues" you named?

I hate acronyms. I have not the slightest clue what EL means? And since I don't really have any close contact with anyone who works with CAM, only some limited contact with a few people that are doing some amazing work in the name of Christ, what ever EL means it is likely I am in no position to make a judgement on there integrity.