War in Gaza

[barnhart]

When it comes to Christians in Israel or Gaza, or other war-torn areas, I think the best thing to do is flee the area. The New Testament tells Christians similar things in various hostile situations. There are political situations where it just doesn't work to try and live out your faith as a Christian. It's not an easy thing to do to leave one's home, friends, work, and all that is familiar, but what else can you really do without becoming caught up in the violence.

I agree, although I understand why people stay. I just listened to an interview with a Gazan seminary professor with family records of Christianity from the first century in that place.

[HondurasKeiser]

I don’t hate Netanyahu. I do think he is a warmonger who has done much to hurt the cause of peace. And my opinion on that is almost entirely based on things (Jewish) Israelis have told me.

It’s possible to believe Hamas is very bad but also think Netanyahu is bad and is not a good leader. Even now, the ICC wants him tried for war crimes. That’s a rather serious thing!

Many Augustinians don't really care what ICC thinks so I doubt mentioning the organization here on MN will make much difference in their minds.

You might want to rethink that rather facile and pejorative logic. I am not an Augustinian, I am a non-resistant Anabaptist and yet I think the ICC and it’s pronouncements are about as weighty and impactful as those made by my cranky uncle. The ICC is a joke and being Anabaptist/non-Augustinian does mean ipso facto support for that dog and pony show.

[Ken]

I don’t hate Netanyahu. I do think he is a warmonger who has done much to hurt the cause of peace. And my opinion on that is almost entirely based on things (Jewish) Israelis have told me.

It’s possible to believe Hamas is very bad but also think Netanyahu is bad and is not a good leader. Even now, the ICC wants him tried for war crimes. That’s a rather serious thing!

Many Augustinians don't really care what ICC thinks so I doubt mentioning the organization here on MN will make much difference in their minds.

You might want to rethink that rather facile and pejorative logic. I am not an Augustinian, I am a non-resistant Anabaptist and yet I think the ICC and it’s pronouncements are about as weighty and impactful as those made by my cranky uncle. The ICC is a joke and being Anabaptist/non-Augustinian does mean ipso facto support for that dog and pony show.

There are 124 countries that recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC. That is a vast number of countries for Netanyahu and other Israeli government officials to avoid for the rest of their lives for fear of extradition to the Hague. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes. The Israelis themselves were hunting Nazis for half a century and geriatric Nazis were still being put on trial in this decade. So absent resolution, it could be for the rest of their lives.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander as the saying goes. That will be the attitude of a whole lot of people in a whole lot of countries who are not particularly approving of Israel's conduct in this war and towards the Palestinians in general. And Netanyahu and his ministers in specific.

And sure, the US can stand up for Israel against the ICC if they want. But that would only serve to undermine US authority internationally and further isolate the US. So there is a very real cost to doing that as well.

It is a little more impactful than your cranky uncle. Or Israel wouldn't care about it so much. The countries that have ratified the ICC are in green. The orange countries are signatories to the agreement but never ratified it. Europe will be completely off limits as well as a whole lot of other countries.

[Josh]

When it comes to Christians in Israel or Gaza, or other war-torn areas, I think the best thing to do is flee the area. The New Testament tells Christians similar things in various hostile situations. There are political situations where it just doesn't work to try and live out your faith as a Christian. It's not an easy thing to do to leave one's home, friends, work, and all that is familiar, but what else can you really do without becoming caught up in the violence.

Virtually all Christians have Gaza have done that. There used to be about 1,300 before this latest war, and now there are even less. The last few churches also have been destroyed.

I find the idea of Arab Christians being forced out of Israel and the Holy Land somewhat offensive.

[HondurasKeiser]

Many Augustinians don't really care what ICC thinks so I doubt mentioning the organization here on MN will make much difference in their minds.

You might want to rethink that rather facile and pejorative logic. I am not an Augustinian, I am a non-resistant Anabaptist and yet I think the ICC and it’s pronouncements are about as weighty and impactful as those made by my cranky uncle. The ICC is a joke and being Anabaptist/non-Augustinian does mean ipso facto support for that dog and pony show.

There are 124 countries that recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC. That is a vast number of countries for Netanyahu and other Israeli government officials to avoid for the rest of their lives for fear of extradition to the Hague. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes. The Israelis themselves were hunting Nazis for half a century and geriatric Nazis were still being put on trial in this decade. So absent resolution, it could be for the rest of their lives.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander as the saying goes. That will be the attitude of a whole lot of people in a whole lot of countries who are not particularly approving of Israel's conduct in this war and towards the Palestinians in general. And Netanyahu and his ministers in specific.

And sure, the US can stand up for Israel against the ICC if they want. But that would only serve to undermine US authority internationally and further isolate the US. So there is a very real cost to doing that as well.

It is a little more impactful than your cranky uncle. Or Israel wouldn't care about it so much. The countries that have ratified the ICC are in green. The orange countries are signatories to the agreement but never ratified it. Europe will be completely off limits as well as a whole lot of other countries.

The U.S., along with China, Russia, India and Israel are not parties to the agreement and therefore the whole exercise is a charade. About as silly and meaningless as the League of Nations. I expect these arrest warrants will matter little to Messrs. Gallant, Netanyahu, Sinwar, et al.

[Josh]

In other words, several lawless countries who want to be an authority unto themselves and reserve the right to engage in war crimes, unwarranted invasions, and face no consequences for doing so.

That sums up America, Russia, India, China, and Israel quite well.

[HondurasKeiser]

In other words, several lawless countries who want to be an authority unto themselves and reserve the right to engage in war crimes, unwarranted invasions, and face no consequences for doing so.

That sums up America, Russia, India, China, and Israel quite well.

No, that’s not the “in other words”. I didn’t know you were such a fan of large, international and unaccountable organizations, Josh.

[Robert]

I don’t hate Netanyahu. I do think he is a warmonger who has done much to hurt the cause of peace. And my opinion on that is almost entirely based on things (Jewish) Israelis have told me.

It’s possible to believe Hamas is very bad but also think Netanyahu is bad and is not a good leader. Even now, the ICC wants him tried for war crimes. That’s a rather serious thing!

Many Augustinians don't really care what ICC thinks so I doubt mentioning the organization here on MN will make much difference in their minds.

The ICC is not really recognized as an authority in Israel or the US.

[Ken]

I don’t hate Netanyahu. I do think he is a warmonger who has done much to hurt the cause of peace. And my opinion on that is almost entirely based on things (Jewish) Israelis have told me.

It’s possible to believe Hamas is very bad but also think Netanyahu is bad and is not a good leader. Even now, the ICC wants him tried for war crimes. That’s a rather serious thing!

Many Augustinians don't really care what ICC thinks so I doubt mentioning the organization here on MN will make much difference in their minds.

The ICC is not really recognized as an authority in Israel or the US.

International extraterritorial extradition for war crimes is actually a principle recognized and practiced by both the US and Israel. Just ask Adolph Eichmann and the many many other Nazis that Israel hunted down around the world and extradited/kidnapped back to Israel to stand trial. A country that none of them had ever set foot in before.

Now I am not saying that Netanyahu and his war ministers are the equivalent of Nazis. Just that Israel most certainly recognizes extraterritorial extraditions and the international application of justice when it suits their own purposes. Likewise, international borders have never stopped Israel from hunting down Palestinian terror suspects anywhere in the world.

There is no statute of limitations on war crimes. If these indictments stick then they will follow Netanyahu and any other Israelis similarly indicted for the rest of their lives. Which can be a very long time. The geopolitics of 2040 or 2050 might look dramatically different from those today.

So will Netanyahu pay immediate consequences for an ICC indictment? No. But it is still a big deal. What happens in 2026 if he is out of power and flying to the US and a mechanical failure forces his plane down in France where there is a warrant out for his arrest? And there is a government in power in France that is seeking political support from French Muslims? Are those the dice he wants to roll? I think not.

Of course the simple solution is for Israel not to behave in ways that raises the specter of war crimes in the first place. But that is something they seem incapable of doing for what seems to be largely domestic political reasons rather than military necessity.

[mike]

When it comes to Christians in Israel or Gaza, or other war-torn areas, I think the best thing to do is flee the area. The New Testament tells Christians similar things in various hostile situations. There are political situations where it just doesn't work to try and live out your faith as a Christian. It's not an easy thing to do to leave one's home, friends, work, and all that is familiar, but what else can you really do without becoming caught up in the violence.

Virtually all Christians have Gaza have done that. There used to be about 1,300 before this latest war, and now there are even less. The last few churches also have been destroyed.

I find the idea of Arab Christians being forced out of Israel and the Holy Land somewhat offensive.

As do I.