War in Gaza

[Ken]

A very good question is what, exactly, Israeli settlers are doing in Gaza who aren't part of the IDF. They have absolutely no business being there.

They are aid convoys passing through the West Bank from the North and being attacked by settlers in the West Bank.

From the article:

Drivers and contractors who were targeted on Monday at the Tarqumiya checkpoint in the occupied West Bank also said Israeli soldiers escorting the convoy did nothing to stop the attack.

[Josh]

A very good question is what, exactly, Israeli settlers are doing in Gaza who aren't part of the IDF. They have absolutely no business being there.

They are aid convoys passing through the West Bank from the North and being attacked by settlers in the West Bank.

From the article:

Drivers and contractors who were targeted on Monday at the Tarqumiya checkpoint in the occupied West Bank also said Israeli soldiers escorting the convoy did nothing to stop the attack.

Ah. I missed the detail that these were convoys going from the West Bank to Gaza (the right of which to travel thereof was something Israel agreed to in writing, but in practice made nearly impossible).

[HondurasKeiser]

Israeli terrorism.

it’s become Israeli government policy to starve the civilian population of Gaza. Part of that policy includes allowing right wing terrorist groups to block international food aid: https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... aid-convoy

A recent study suggests that your assertion is little more than propaganda:

Specifically, the Israeli researchers found that on average, between January and April, 124 trucks carrying food and humanitarian aid entered Gaza per day. That adds up to 3,211 calories worth of nutrition per Gazan, per day. The World Health Organization standard for calorie consumption is 2,900 per day for average-sized men and 2,200 per day for average-sized women.

“Contrary to claims that Israel has deliberately starved Gaza, Israel has gone to considerable lengths to facilitate food aid delivered to Gaza,” the authors write.

We have heard many accusations of starvation over the course of this war, but there has been scant evidence. (According to The Wall Street Journal, over the past seven months Hamas claims that 31 Gazans have died because of malnutrition and dehydration.) More, the ICC ignores abundant evidence that Hamas is hoarding the food and medical aid meant for the population it purports to govern. As the U.S. military was building a pier in Gaza to deliver aid last month, Hamas fired mortar rounds at the construction area. The Israel Defense Forces have posted many videos and photographs of Hamas gunmen commandeering aid from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). On May 2, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller acknowledged that Hamas was diverting aid.

“Israel is letting the aid into Gaza,” an Israeli defense official who works closely on administering aid delivery into the territory told The Free Press. “But the aid is diverted by Hamas. We have lots of intelligence on how the aid only goes to Hamas members and their families.”

As to the "far-right" Israelis attacking aid trucks (how do you know they're far-right? Because The Guardian says so?) It's wrong and should be stopped but is hardly evidence of a systematic starvation program:

Stephen Rapp, the former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues in the Office of Global Criminal Justice under President Obama, told The Free Press he thought Israel’s case was hurt by Israeli extremist attacks against aid trucks entering Gaza. “They are being attacked by extremists,” Rapp said. “And I have not seen incidents of them being arrested.”

The failure of Israel to prosecute its own vigilantes weakens the country’s best argument before the International Criminal Court, Rapp said, but he still sees the prosecution as wrongheaded. “My general attitude is that this is a nation and system based on the rule of law. We count on them to investigate themselves; don’t take them to the Hague,” he said.

https://www.thefp.com/p/israel-is-not-equivalent-to-hamas

[HondurasKeiser]

Here's the study

[Ken]

Here's the study

Did you actually read the study that you cited? It is a several Israeli authors who essentially did the following:

1. Tried to estimate the total volume of food entering Gaza in terms of caloric content. Which they only did very roughly.
2. Estimated the total population of Gaza
3. Divided the second number by the first to conclude that enough food is getting in because the resulting number is above UN daily minimum nutritional requirements.

Which actually does noting to refute reports of widespread famine in Gaza. The real issue with feeding a population is DISTRIBUTION. And the authors did nothing to suggest that the food getting into Gaza is actually being distributed evenly and effectively to the entire population when mobility within Gaza is highly restricted by Israeli combat operations. The study does nothing to address:

1. How much food aid is being destroyed by Israeli bombing of warehouses, storage depots, etc.
2. How much food aid is being mal-distributed by hoarding, diversions to criminal gangs, Hamas, etc.
3. How much food aid is not being distributed within Gaza because aid workers cannot move freely
4. How much food aid is buried under rubble.
5. Whether refugees within Gaza have access to any of this food aid or even the ability to cook things like basic grains if they don't have fuel or cooking supplies.

[HondurasKeiser]

Here's the study

Did you actually read the study that you cited? It is a several Israeli authors who essentially did the following:

1. Tried to estimate the total volume of food entering Gaza in terms of caloric content. Which they only did very roughly.
2. Estimated the total population of Gaza
3. Divided the second number by the first to conclude that enough food is getting in because the resulting number is above UN daily minimum nutritional requirements.

Which actually does noting to refute reports of widespread famine in Gaza. The real issue with feeding a population is DISTRIBUTION. And the authors did nothing to suggest that the food getting into Gaza is actually being distributed evenly and effectively to the entire population when mobility within Gaza is highly restricted by Israeli combat operations. The study does nothing to address:

1. How much food aid is being destroyed by Israeli bombing of warehouses, storage depots, etc.
2. How much food aid is being mal-distributed by hoarding, diversions to criminal gangs, Hamas, etc.
3. How much food aid is not being distributed within Gaza because aid workers cannot move freely
4. How much food aid is buried under rubble.
5. Whether refugees within Gaza have access to any of this food aid or even the ability to cook things like basic grains if they don't have fuel or cooking supplies.

Yes I did. I think #2 on your list of reasons Gazans aren't getting food is widely recognized as the biggest culprit. Maybe Hamas is actually systematically starving the Gazan civilians.

[Ken]

Here's the study

Did you actually read the study that you cited? It is a several Israeli authors who essentially did the following:

1. Tried to estimate the total volume of food entering Gaza in terms of caloric content. Which they only did very roughly.
2. Estimated the total population of Gaza
3. Divided the second number by the first to conclude that enough food is getting in because the resulting number is above UN daily minimum nutritional requirements.

Which actually does noting to refute reports of widespread famine in Gaza. The real issue with feeding a population is DISTRIBUTION. And the authors did nothing to suggest that the food getting into Gaza is actually being distributed evenly and effectively to the entire population when mobility within Gaza is highly restricted by Israeli combat operations. The study does nothing to address:

1. How much food aid is being destroyed by Israeli bombing of warehouses, storage depots, etc.
2. How much food aid is being mal-distributed by hoarding, diversions to criminal gangs, Hamas, etc.
3. How much food aid is not being distributed within Gaza because aid workers cannot move freely
4. How much food aid is buried under rubble.
5. Whether refugees within Gaza have access to any of this food aid or even the ability to cook things like basic grains if they don't have fuel or cooking supplies.

Yes I did. I think #2 on your list of reasons Gazans aren't getting food is widely recognized as the biggest culprit. Maybe Hamas is actually systematically starving the Gazan civilians.

I expect that Hamas is mostly hiding out in tunnels at this point. And what is really happening is the complete breakdown in law and order and civil society everywhere in Gaza due to Israel's war of destruction which is not being followed up by any sort of occupational law and order.

For example, on V-E day the US had 1.6 million troops occupying just the American sector of Germany while the British/Canadians, and Soviets had similar occupation forces occupying their sectors. Which meant that there were soldiers on every street corner and intersection in the country and massive military support for all the civilian aid operations that were trying to feed and rebuild a destroyed Germany. The occupying forces imposed order to make all that happen.

By contrast, in Gaza the Israeli military goes in, destroys large portions of Gaza including all civilian infrastructure such as police, then just leaves anarchy behind. It is no surprise that aid is not being distributed safely and efficiently. Some is probably Hamas but just the general anarchy, hording, and ordinary criminal element is probably doing the rest.

So yes, measuring the total number of calories on the trucks getting into Gaza doesn't really tell us anything about whether or not ordinary Gazans are starving.

[temporal1]

Ken:
Did you actually read the study that you cited? ..

that you ask and continue to ask if HK has read his material, reflects a rookie member mentality .. that inexplicably persists. it can be amusing to witness when a person has no clue they’re out of their league.

ken_s,
hopefully to prevent you from choking ..
i’m well-aware i’m out of my league on forum. i fully admit it, i’m ok with it.
i’m here to learn, and, i believe i’ve learned a lot. no plans to stop.

the most worthwhile content is not necessarily from those in the top ten post count. quality/quantity.

[Ernie]

The perspective Valerie has is not an uncommon one, and to be frank, it is one that I keep hearing from various evangelical sorts of people. They speak as if the Bible actually condones anything the present-day State of Israel wants to do when it goes to war. I find this approach to scripture troubling, but it is what it is.

It's trying to understand the mindset of the Jewish people. I truly am not "evangelically" influenced about this. It seems blatantly clear from studying the OT for decades, and realizing Jews are who they are, and are not Anabaptist in thinking nor are they NT people. War has always been in their long history. So has being attacked.

Yes, I agree that this perspective is not limited to Evangelicals.

It is a perspective held by many people who have adopted Augustinian theology, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Church of Christ, Mormons, Messianic Jews, and even some Anabaptists.

[joshuabgood]

The perspective Valerie has is not an uncommon one, and to be frank, it is one that I keep hearing from various evangelical sorts of people. They speak as if the Bible actually condones anything the present-day State of Israel wants to do when it goes to war. I find this approach to scripture troubling, but it is what it is.

It's trying to understand the mindset of the Jewish people. I truly am not "evangelically" influenced about this. It seems blatantly clear from studying the OT for decades, and realizing Jews are who they are, and are not Anabaptist in thinking nor are they NT people. War has always been in their long history. So has being attacked.

Yes, I agree that this perspective is not limited to Evangelicals.

It is a perspective held by many people who have adopted Augustinian theology, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Church of Christ, Mormons, Messianic Jews, and even some Anabaptists.

Though there are adherents in all of those streams that see ir differently. The Pope for one.