War in Gaza

[Josh]

It's trying to understand the mindset of the Jewish people.

"The Jewish people" are not of one single mindset. There are very different viewpoints in Israel. Some people advocate a two-state solution, others a one-state solution, etc.

I truly am not "evangelically" influenced about this. It seems blatantly clear from studying the OT for decades, and realizing Jews are who they are, and are not Anabaptist in thinking nor are they NT people. War has always been in their long history. So has being attacked.

Huh?

[Ken]

One doesn't need to look to ancient history to explain or justify anything about the war in Gaza. Israel is a modern multi-ethnic and multi-religious nation.

Every country on earth has been subject to war and conflict over its history. Israel is no exception. Every so-called Christian nation from the US to the UK to Germany and France has been involved in countless wars and back when it was called "Christendom" the Christian world engaged in religious crusades.

Who here is calling Israel to some higher religious standard than is expected of the Christian world? They have the right to defend themselves. But when engaging in military force they also have a moral obligation to do so according to internationally accepted standards for the conduct of warfare. Which don't involve starving civilians.

Likewise, to the extent that Hamas is any sort of official government of Gaza the same standards apply to them as well.

[RZehr]

Here is an interesting quote made by Origen in 248. " Christians could not slay their enemies. Nor could they condemn those who had broken the Law to be burned or stoned, as Moses commands.....However, in the case of the ancient Jews, who had a land and a form of government of their own, to take from them the right of making war upon their enemies, of fighting for their country, of putting to death or otherwise punishing adulterers, murderers, or others who were guilty of similar crimes, would have been to subject them to sudden and utter destruction whenever the enemy fell upon them."

Okay- as a Christian, he "gets it".

I read this as referring to “ancient Jews, who had a land.” He was not referring to anyone in his era or in our era who may be practicing the Jewish faith.

He is talking about Jews of the Old Testament time, in which case Anabaptists wouldn’t really disagree that those ancient Jews were directed to fight and kill.

[Valerie]

Here is an interesting quote made by Origen in 248. " Christians could not slay their enemies. Nor could they condemn those who had broken the Law to be burned or stoned, as Moses commands.....However, in the case of the ancient Jews, who had a land and a form of government of their own, to take from them the right of making war upon their enemies, of fighting for their country, of putting to death or otherwise punishing adulterers, murderers, or others who were guilty of similar crimes, would have been to subject them to sudden and utter destruction whenever the enemy fell upon them."

Okay- as a Christian, he "gets it".

I read this as referring to “ancient Jews, who had a land.” He was not referring to anyone in his era or in our era who may be practicing the Jewish faith.

He is talking about Jews of the Old Testament time, in which case Anabaptists wouldn’t really disagree that those ancient Jews were directed to fight and kill.

I realized that of course but who was responsible for establishing Israel in 1948? How would the persecuted Jews have seen this reestablishment? And I guess this is the first I ever heard that Anabaptists deny parts of the Old testament. Who knew?

[RZehr]

Here is an interesting quote made by Origen in 248. " Christians could not slay their enemies. Nor could they condemn those who had broken the Law to be burned or stoned, as Moses commands.....However, in the case of the ancient Jews, who had a land and a form of government of their own, to take from them the right of making war upon their enemies, of fighting for their country, of putting to death or otherwise punishing adulterers, murderers, or others who were guilty of similar crimes, would have been to subject them to sudden and utter destruction whenever the enemy fell upon them."

Okay- as a Christian, he "gets it".

I read this as referring to “ancient Jews, who had a land.” He was not referring to anyone in his era or in our era who may be practicing the Jewish faith.

He is talking about Jews of the Old Testament time, in which case Anabaptists wouldn’t really disagree that those ancient Jews were directed to fight and kill.

I realized that of course but who was responsible for establishing Israel in 1948? How would the persecuted Jews have seen this reestablishment? And I guess this is the first I ever heard that Anabaptists deny parts of the Old testament. Who knew?

First time for everything, so they say.

What Anabaptist is denying what part of the Old Testament?

I’ll let someone else answer the first two questions.

[Josh]

I realized that of course but who was responsible for establishing Israel in 1948?

The United Nations.

How would the persecuted Jews have seen this reestablishment?

Perhaps the same way the persecuted Armenians did when Armenia gained its independence in 1990?

And I guess this is the first I ever heard that Anabaptists deny parts of the Old testament. Who knew?

What part of the OT have we denied?

Part of what is questionable here is that you seem to make an assumption that the modern-day state of Israel has something to do with the Old Testament. The modern-day state of Israel isn't any different than other countries, like Armenia or Turkey.

[ohio jones]

... who was responsible for establishing Israel in 1948?

The UN, the UK, David Ben-Gurion, the Minhelet HaAm, the Moetzet HaAm, and others.

How would the persecuted Jews have seen this reestablishment?

Depends whether they were religious Jews (and what branch or degree of observance) or secular Jews. It's about as useful as stating that "Anabaptists deny" as if there's a unanimity of opinion.

[Josh]

America has a larger Jewish population than Israel does. And American Jews have a wide, wide variety of opinions on things. Some of the most ultra-orthodox religious ones don't recognise Israel as legitimate, because they would only recognise a true theocracy complete with rebuilding the temple. Others hold a standard right-wing sort of view. And still others are more left-wing, including many American Jews who sympathise with the Palestinian plight and are protesting alongside pro-Palestinian advocates right now.

With 16 million Jews in the whole world (and over 7 million of those in America), you will find a great diversity of opinions. There is a joke I learned when I worked for an Israeli company - "If you have 2 Jews in a room, you will have 3 opinions."

[Ken]

Israeli terrorism.

it’s become Israeli government policy to starve the civilian population of Gaza. Part of that policy includes allowing right wing terrorist groups to block international food aid: https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... aid-convoy

Palestinian lorry drivers delivering aid to Gaza have described “barbaric” scenes after their vehicles were blocked and vandalised by Israeli settlers, preventing humanitarian supplies reaching the territory where much of the population face imminent starvation.

Drivers and contractors who were targeted on Monday at the Tarqumiya checkpoint in the occupied West Bank also said Israeli soldiers escorting the convoy did nothing to stop the attack.

The incident sparked international condemnation after videos emerged on social media that appeared to show Israeli settlers throwing boxes of much-needed supplies on the ground and at least one vehicle being set ablaze.

Yazid al-Zoubi, 26, said between 50 and 60 lorries had set out in the convoy.

“We were carrying oil, sugar and other things and driving from the Tarqumiya crossing,” he said. “We left in a convoy with an army vehicle in front of us and an army vehicle behind us, and we took a special army road that civilians could not cross. Suddenly, after 20 minutes on the road, near the crossing, we were surprised by at least 400 settlers. They attacked us. The rest of the drivers and I escaped from the vehicles after the settlers starting throwing stones at us.’’

Zoubi said the situation escalated when the settlers started breaking the windscreens of the lorries and piercing the tyres, then climbed on to the vehicles and threw packages of food into the road.

Aid agencies have described famine conditions in parts of Gazathat they have said have been caused by Israeli restrictions on aid entering the Palestinian territory. Humanitarian officials say the population of Gaza needs at least 500 daily lorryloads of food, fuel and other essentials but have received a fraction of that amount.

Zoubi said that during Monday’s attack the Israeli soldiers escorting the convoy stood back and watched as the settlers rampaged.

“We are shocked and surprised that the army did not provide us with any kind of protection,” he said. “Even though they were present and watching what was happening. The army was at the service of the settlers.’’

Zoubi said the drivers fled the scene but that when they returned later to retrieve their belongings, they were attacked by the settlers, some of whom were armed.

‘’At that point the army gathered us and ordered us to raise our hands on the walls,” he said. “The settlers were free to terrorise us. I have never been attacked so brutally before.

“The state of terror I experienced is indescribable. Even now I have nightmares at night. My psychological state is broken, I cannot think properly, I can’t sleep. I cannot work. We are not smugglers. We agreed to transport goods legally from the crossing under the watch and supervision of the Israeli authorities.”

Footage of the incident appears to show the Israeli soldiers taking no action against the settlers.

This kind of thing doesn’t happen without government sanction, via either explicit approval or strategic indifference. Which, for the purposes of international law, are the same thing.

[Josh]

A very good question is what, exactly, Israeli settlers are doing in Gaza who aren't part of the IDF. They have absolutely no business being there.