Ivermectin

[Bootstrap]

Maybe not?

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/coronavir ... 2021-09-26

And I'm not so sure about Japan either:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... 9-treatme/

[haithabu]

Studies also found there was no clarity on mortality benefit, no effect on length of hospital stay and recovery in case of Ivermectin.

Recommending that Ivermectin be dropped from the clinical guidance, experts cited 13 systematic reviews of which “7/13 showed mortality benefit, 4/13 no mortality benefit, 2/13 inconclusive/unclear.”

Additionally, there was a high risk of bias in many of the studies, particularly with the ones showing mortality benefit, as the level of certainty is low in them.

The recommendations were made at a meeting of the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) and the ICMR national task force for Covid-19 and the Joint Monitoring Group on August 20.

I'm not endorsing Ivermectin, but when you have 13 studies and 7 of them show benefit, 4 no benefit and then you focus on the bias of the positive gain studies and not on the negative studies... the bias is obvious. That being said, I personally have no idea if Ivermectin works, I know it was endorsed by Fouci back for SARS-Covid in 2005 so... logically there must have been a reason. Equally so, its possible we have further data but that data didn't exist prior to Covid-19 to my knowledge. There could have been a study done somewhere but likely there would have been no reason. This makes it a little odd that Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine was discounted before further studies were really done.

I’ve seen a number of Third World countries perform this strange on again off again yo-yo on HCQ and ivermectin. Almost as if there are countervailing pressures applied.

Costa Rica used early treatment with HCQ as part of its standard of care for Covid from very early on in March 2020. Case numbers remained low and the CFR was running around 0.5% until they were persuaded to abandon it in July, after which case numbers skyrocketed and the CFR began to go up.The use of HCQ was reinstated a few months later but they never quite got the case numbers under control after that.

[haithabu]

Let's all take this disease seriously

Giving early treatment with things that could or might help and have minimal to no side effects is taking it seriously. Waiting until someone is so sick they have to go to the hospital then start treatment is not.

So true!

For example when Neil got tested by the rapid test Sunday they just told him to take Tylenol (that was a doctor) propane if he needed it.

When I contacted his doctor on Monday, I told them I believe he had a sinus infection with his covid so the doctor prescribed antibiotic other than that, his instructions were if his oxygen dropped below 93 or is fever was higher than the 101 it had been to take him to emergency. No treatment. Every doctor has told the people I know there is no treatment.

When I asked his physician who is from India and just got back from India where ivermectin is being used successfully, I assumed since he just got back and was aware of this that I could ask him for a prescription of it and was told he will not prescribe it. There's nothing conventional doctors will do if one has it but tell you to wait till you need to go to emergency. At that point some do not make it out and eventually succumb to it. Wouldn't it have been nice if they were able to get the treatment that have been effective early on

It’s almost unheard of for medical doctors to display this level of unanimity on treatment which they WON’T try especially when there is no established therapeutic. It’s almost as if they’ve all received the same memo.

[Ken]

It’s almost unheard of for medical doctors to display this level of unanimity on treatment which they WON’T try especially when there is no established therapeutic. It’s almost as if they’ve all received the same memo.

They did all receive the same memo. From the actual inventor and primary manufacturer of Ivermectin:

It reads like this:

KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:

• No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
• No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
• A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.

We do not believe that the data available support the safety and efficacy of ivermectin beyond the doses and populations indicated in the regulatory agency-approved prescribing information.

You can read the whole thing yourself right here: https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statem ... -pandemic/

[Josh]

It really is stunning to watch Ken and Bootstrap work so hard to promote... doing absolutely nothing to treat covid at home, before you’re bad enough to need to go to the ER.

[Ken]

It really is stunning to watch Ken and Bootstrap work so hard to promote... doing absolutely nothing to treat covid at home, before you’re bad enough to need to go to the ER.

Boot and I are both vaccinated. When means that we aren't particularly obsessed with trying to find bootleg horse deworming paste at the local Tractor Supply. Ivermectin might be the greatest anti-viral in the history of modern medicine. I have no idea. But right now the evidence for it is incredibly sketchy. People are also gargling bleach. Are you going to do that too?

[ohio jones]

People are also gargling bleach.

Statistically (t1, feel free to ignore this post) that is not the case, at least not to the extent the media would have you believe. According to this article in Harvard Business Review,

When the CDC published a report in the summer of 2020 stating that 4% of respondents reported ingesting household chemicals in an attempt to ward off the coronavirus, many people were (understandably) alarmed. Researchers who replicated the study, with the addition of some basic quality control measures to eliminate inaccurate data, got very different results.

Essentially, the number dropped from 4% to zero.

...especially when that data is used to support claims with serious societal repercussions, it’s essential to validate results with basic quality control interventions, such as the attention and reality checks described above. In the case of the CDC study, a failure to do so (along with some perhaps overzealous reporting) led researchers, media, and the public to believe that up to 12 million Americans were drinking bleach. This claim was likely not only false, but also potentially harmful, as it may have served to normalize these dangerous behaviors and thus increase the number of people who might actually engage in them.

[haithabu]

It’s almost unheard of for medical doctors to display this level of unanimity on treatment which they WON’T try especially when there is no established therapeutic. It’s almost as if they’ve all received the same memo.

They did all receive the same memo. From the actual inventor and primary manufacturer of Ivermectin:

It reads like this:

KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:

• No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
• No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
• A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.

We do not believe that the data available support the safety and efficacy of ivermectin beyond the doses and populations indicated in the regulatory agency-approved prescribing information.

You can read the whole thing yourself right here: https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statem ... -pandemic/

I don’t see anything in this memo which would discourage a doctor from prescribing Ivermectin if they have information attesting to its effectiveness from other sources. It’s basically a statement of ignorance. Merck’s expression of concern for lack of data as to its safety is disingenuous given IVM’s long safety record.

[temporal1]

People are also gargling bleach.

Statistically (t1, feel free to ignore this post) that is not the case, at least not to the extent the media would have you believe. According to this article in Harvard Business Review,

When the CDC published a report in the summer of 2020 stating that 4% of respondents reported ingesting household chemicals in an attempt to ward off the coronavirus, many people were (understandably) alarmed. Researchers who replicated the study, with the addition of some basic quality control measures to eliminate inaccurate data, got very different results.

Essentially, the number dropped from 4% to zero.

...especially when that data is used to support claims with serious societal repercussions, it’s essential to validate results with basic quality control interventions, such as the attention and reality checks described above. In the case of the CDC study, a failure to do so (along with some perhaps overzealous reporting) led researchers, media, and the public to believe that up to 12 million Americans were drinking bleach. This claim was likely not only false, but also potentially harmful, as it may have served to normalize these dangerous behaviors and thus increase the number of people who might actually engage in them.

thanks. i appreciate it.

i’m fond of bleach as a general household disinfectant. i use somewhat less now that i’m on a septic system.

by way of COVID, tho, i keep a bowl of water with some bleach and dish detergent in the sink where i wash my hands.
i use hand soap, then wash in this solution, because i read bleach is a good disinfectant for this virus.

years ago, i did similar when any family member would get sick. i.e., i would often put some bleach in dish water, keep eating utensils, glasses, etc, separate, and so on. it’s not easy, but possible to keep germs from spreading to everyone in the house!
even stomach flus.

i don’t drink bleach.

[nett]

It really is stunning to watch Ken and Bootstrap work so hard to promote... doing absolutely nothing to treat covid at home, before you’re bad enough to need to go to the ER.

Boot and I are both vaccinated. When means that we aren't particularly obsessed with trying to find bootleg horse deworming paste at the local Tractor Supply. Ivermectin might be the greatest anti-viral in the history of modern medicine. I have no idea. But right now the evidence for it is incredibly sketchy. People are also gargling bleach. Are you going to do that too?

At this point 100% of the people I know with serious cases are vaccinated. One of them is in the hospital, the rest are really sick.

It might feel good to pretend like being vaccinated means you won't get a serious case of COVID, but it's not reality.