Neto wrote: ↑Tue Jan 06, 2026 8:49 pm
JohnH wrote: ↑Tue Jan 06, 2026 7:34 pm
Interestingly an (expelled) member at my church has written voluminously making a very similar argument.
Maybe one copied from the other. Seems a mighty poor bit of thinking for two to think the same thing.
Well, the brother I mentioned seems to suffer from some kind of condition where he often sees patterns where there isn't one. I feel like his voluminous writings are him attempting to do his best, but his condition makes it somewhat incoherent or even seem quite creepy. Therefore, I have read what he has asked me to read with a very open mind, trying to understand the heart of the person writing it instead of simply becoming offended at the writings themselves.
At the end of the day, I just feel like it's proper to walk around with our bodies covered up appropriately, but it doesn't somehow make us holier or better than worldly people. I simply wear pants, a shirt, and so on. I try to avoid feeling contempt for men in town who might be wearing shorts, or wearing a singlet or no shirt at all. After all, God looks on both of our hearts and sees past the outside. But with that said, I feel it is best if I wear a shirt when I'm in town, as do my children and my brethren.
I feel a real conflict with this kind of thinking that sometimes pops up in plain circles - often amongst the less conservative groups such as Charity:
https://www.ephrataministries.org/pdf/2 ... emnant.pdf
Laura Lloyd wrote:All of us mothers have those times when we sit and dream of our little girls growing up and getting married to a fine young Christian man. I know we also plan for our daughters to be virgins when they marry.
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If the principle for modesty is keeping the form of our body hidden from view from all but our life partners, then we would not want our young marriageable daughters wearing dresses that revealed their slender waists and beautiful legs.
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We live in the inner city, and we often have occasion to see the “attire of the harlot”. My husband uses the frequent opportunities to teach both our boys and girls what not to wear and do. The inner city also provides many opportunities to show them the sad results of life lived in such a manner. Our family devotions, which is often in Proverbs, also provides ample admonitions and illustrations on impurity and its end.
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Another subtle danger is the advertisements that come to the home. We need to remember that these women are harlots, and are guided to express the spirit of a harlot in every picture they pose for
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We have a goal of virgin brides giving themselves freely and joyfully to their husbands on their wedding day. That innocent purity must be guided and protected.
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We have observed that they must be secure in the affection of their father who knows how to give them approval and blessing. May praise and approval be the focus of our relationships and reproofs only a necessary part of training. Purity starts with the little girls on Papa’s lap receiving a blessing. Oh, the protective power of a father’s love. No young man can break into it.
This mindset appears to put the cart before the horse: we were created by God to love and serve him, and also to be loved by God, who sent Jesus to in turn even serve us. The reason we don't want to sin is because God doesn't want us to, and he has something better for us, but we also all have sinned, and need Jesus to be a saviour.
But the mindset above seems to have a different agenda: somehow managing to raise a family in some kind of perfect lifestyle so that the children will never grow up to be sinners, and then due to being unstained by sin, somehow grow into perfect adults who will have good marriages. This is paired up with a deep level of contempt for the world around us. It is true that many people in the world don't dress properly and cover up their bodies properly, but I think it is fair to say this is mostly done out of ignorance.
The purpose of "fleeing fornication" is not so that a brides can "give themselves freely and joyfully to their husbands on their wedding day". It is, rather, because a joyful life of one serving God is one where there isn't any allowance for fornication, because we are temples of the Holy Spirit. Some people never get married, yet it is just as much of a blessing for an unmarried person not to fall into sin as it is for a person who eventually gets married.
I have known people from very loving homes who nonetheless fall away from church and fall into sin and even lose their faith. No matter how loving their father was and secure of a home was provided, it is no guarantee that people will grow up to be Christ-followers. Yet it is also a blessing that some people from such homes may stray, but repent later, and be washed of their sins and fully restored to church fellowship and to following Jesus. No sin should ever be viewed as too great or too big for Jesus to overcome.
Finally, the "heartbeat of the remnant" is not "chaste, virgin daughters" - rather, it is the hearts that beat that are inside former sinners who are saved by grace. I can think of a person I would esteem as someone who has taken many steps to follow Christ and even led other people to the Lord. As a sinner saved by grace there was a great deal of immorality in her past, ranging from fornication to immorality to drunkenness to addiction to things like cigarettes. Yet all of that has been put behind, but when I first met this person, she was not dressed "modestly" like we plain people might expect, but instead seemed to be clothed "(which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." Years later, I would daresay she dresses more modestly than many plain people - and expresses puzzlement at "head coverings" that made our see-through mesh.
I would rather have a church composed of many such people than people who seemingly are "chaste" by some kind of standard, yet lack good works and the "hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."
Jesus is the good shepherd who will leave the 99 in their sheepfold to go and rescue the 1 sheep who is lost. May we all have a similar focus on the "lost sheep", instead of trying to build higher and higher walls around our sheepfolds.
