Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

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Neto
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Neto »

Here's the puzzling thing to me (or one of the puzzling things.... :? ):
When I say "Congregationalist" I think of a congregation that is governed by the membership, through something like quarterly business meetings (& ALL of the members, not just the men). But people in our congregation say it has a "Congregationalist" governance style because there is no entity above it, telling it what to do. I grew up in the MB, and there was a LOT of 'governance' above the congregation. Next up was not so much governance, but someone who had experience in the leadership of a local MB congregation might know something about it that I don't, because I moved away w/o every having taken any leadership role of any kind, except for being sent out as a missionary, and supported by the congregation. Anyway, the next level of organization is the Region (3 congregations in Oklahoma & Arkansas), then the District (Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, Colorado). Then there was the US General Conference, and in those days, the US and Canada formed the North American Conf. (They have since gone their separate ways, as I understand.)
Anyway - to the point. (Finally!) The conservatives seem to be saying that that is Top Down, and to some extent it is, but it isn't the sort of top-down micro management that is typical of the conservative congregations with which I am acquainted. It is just that the 'Top' is the bishop and the other ministers (and woe unto they which attempt to tell them what to do <archaic language chosen on purpose>). I don't think that fits with what people keep telling me is the meaning of this German word. I figure I must be missing something, but I still haven't put my finger on it.
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Ms. Izzie
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Ms. Izzie »

Maybe it's that everything is labeled "Top Down" until you find yourself in the "Top" and then it's time for everybody to practice gelassenheit? Hmmm.... but that wouldn't be gelassenheit would it?

I share your puzzlement.
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DrWojo
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by DrWojo »

Ms. Izzie wrote:Maybe it's that everything is labeled "Top Down" until you find yourself in the "Top" and then it's time for everybody to practice gelassenheit? Hmmm.... but that wouldn't be gelassenheit would it?

I share your puzzlement.
Growing up in EPMC I would say I witnessed firsthand the uncontrolled obsession to force Ultraconservatism on the lower echelon laity, the push to put out of fellowship those that didn’t follow the status-quo, etc. I get the impression the drive in the Conference before the EPMC was the other direction, a world-ward drift. So I question whether Bro. Chester’s holding out gelassenheit as the ‘happy medium’ means no cliques or groups are trying to promote either extreme?
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"Too often believers have trivialized goodness by concentrating on their various denominational brands of legalism, becoming a 'peculiar people' set at odd angles to the world rather than being an attractive light illuminating it." -Unknown
Ernie
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Ernie »

ohio jones wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:Appalachian Mennonite Church? Tell me more, if you can.
Previously mentioned here and here.
And here is a thread where they can be discussed further.

http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?p=26189#p26189
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Ernie »

appleman2006 wrote:Do not get me going on that. Men's meetings to decide church matters is so far away from true brotherhood IMO. That is a long way from what I am talking about.
Then why use the word "brotherhood"? Churches with that word in the name make Americans think the church is some "men only" thing that women can't join. Please, no one else start a church with brotherhood in the name. The ones I know of do have a heavy brothers emphasis and not much sisters emphasis.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
barnhart
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by barnhart »

I will wildly speculate that the meaningful kernel of gelassenheit is the conviction (shared by all) that the church moves forward through unanimity, not consensus. Maybe a bit of pre-elightenment philosophy.
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Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

appleman2006 wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
Much of Chester's frame of reference in his early years would have been in a conference type setting where it is a top-down rule. I don't know how a fellowship type church life operates 1st hand, but I believe at least in theory "gelassenheit" or "Brotherhood of Believers" would be more how a fellowship type church operates. The conference-type church government does lip service to "Brotherhood of Believers" but it seldom happens.
I gathered as much that his background was Lancaster conference and I am assuming he or his family broke away with the eastern and then Pilgrim if I was following his path. And he must be something in the line of Shippensberg fellowship now if I had to guess. And I would put his age at about 63 which would of made him almost a teenager at the time of the Eastern breakaway.

How close am I?
Chester's mother grew up in the Washington Franklin Conference (Washington CO). I believe his father grew up in the Lancaster conference which back in the '40s and '50s there would not have been much difference. His parents went with Eastern (one of the most conservative congregations) either when it started or soon after. Chester was with Eastern and moved to Texas to help with the work there. He was there when Pilgrim started and was working for Rod and Staff. The church in TX was in Aaron Shank's district but chose to stay with Eastern. I don't know the details but for some reason, Chester was (as I understand it) kind of pushed out of Eastern and was without a church. R&S said he needed to be a member of a church to continue working for them. He then asked for a 2-year membership at the congregation of which I was a part (in PA). I am ashamed to say we did not accept him as a member on those terms. I believe today he is a member of a Beachy church in IN but lives in TX part of the year. i am not sure about that. As to his age, I am thinking he is somewhere around 70.
Last edited by Biblical Anabaptist on Tue May 19, 2020 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neto
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Neto »

Ernie wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:Do not get me going on that. Men's meetings to decide church matters is so far away from true brotherhood IMO. That is a long way from what I am talking about.
Then why use the word "brotherhood"? Churches with that word in the name make Americans think the church is some "men only" thing that women can't join. Please, no one else start a church with brotherhood in the name. The ones I know of do have a heavy brothers emphasis and not much sisters emphasis.
The MB church (Mennonite Brethren) was so named because of an emphasis on the fact/recognition that we (Mennonites) are no the only Christians, and that we can and should be open to fellowship across those lines. And even though it had 'Brethren' in the name, the sisters were also involved in decision making. (At least by the time I was around. Probably a good bit less so back in the 1860's.)
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Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

DrWojo wrote:
Ms. Izzie wrote:Maybe it's that everything is labeled "Top Down" until you find yourself in the "Top" and then it's time for everybody to practice gelassenheit? Hmmm.... but that wouldn't be gelassenheit would it?

I share your puzzlement.
Growing up in EPMC I would say I witnessed firsthand the uncontrolled obsession to force Ultraconservatism on the lower echelon laity, the push to put out of fellowship those that didn’t follow the status-quo, etc. I get the impression the drive in the Conference before the EPMC was the other direction, a world-ward drift. So I question whether Bro. Chester’s holding out gelassenheit as the ‘happy medium’ means no cliques or groups are trying to promote either extreme?
Have you read Chester's book on Aaron Shank. I found it very interesting, especially the part about the formation of the Pilgrim Conference. I had many conversations with Aaron over that time.
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Ernie
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Re: Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

Post by Ernie »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote:Chester's mother grew up in the Washington Franklin Conference (Washington CO). I believe his father grew up in the Lancaster conference which back in the '40s and '50s there would not have been much difference. His parents went with Eastern (one of the most conservative congregations) either when it started or soon after. Chester was with Eastern and moved to Texas to help with the work there. He was there when Pilgrim started and was working for Rod and Staff. The church in TX was in Aaron Shank's district but chose to stay with Eastern. I don't know the details but for some reason, Chester was (as I understand it) kind of pushed out of Eastern and was without a church. R&S said he needed to be a member of a church to continue working for them. He then asked for a 2-year membership at the congregation of which I was a part (in PA). I am ashamed to say we did not accept him as a member on those terms. I believe today he is a member of a Beachy church in IN but lives in TX part of the year. i am not sure about that. As to his age, I am thinking he is somewhere around 70.
I have interacted with Chester quite a bit the last 17 years. The only thing I would add is that when Pilgrim separated from Eastern, there needed to be enough people in a congregation who wanted to be Pilgrim in order for Pilgrim to start a church in that area. There was not enough people who wanted to be Pilgrim at the EPMC church in Scurry, TX.

So Chester went looking for fellowship at Grandview, TX. He was a deacon there until he was silenced for being to open-minded. Half the church left over this and Chester eventually decided to join them at their request. But then the half that left Grandview (Osceloa) started moving left quite rapidly and eventually silenced Chester for being too close-minded. So then he moved to Northern IN and joined a Beachy church. The leaders of that church had a scandal that was not dealt with properly according to Chester and others and so they started a new Beachy church. Then Chester got asked to come back to Osceloa to teach school there. (few churches ask someone to teach school for them that they silenced a few years earlier, so I commend them for being willing to do this.) The church had done a pendulum swing and were ready to have Chester back. Chester was hoping they would swing back far enough that he could join them again but they didn't go as far as he was hoping, so the last I knew he is still a member of the new Beachy church he helped form in Northern, IN but lives in Texas most of the year.
0 x
The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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