Are the Turtles Beating us?

[Josh]

Regarding (1), this wasn't a really meant to be a sermon. (I saw him deliver the exact same message live at AIC 2024, which is not a place where sermons are preached.)

Regarding (3), I agree the plain coat was a bit of a silly shibboleth - it made sense to promote them in a time of suit coats becoming more fancy, but it seems bizarre in a world where men rarely wear suit coats.

When J.C. Wenger and Harold Bender decided to aggressively promote plain coats... I really wish they had instead realised a far more sensible marker of "plain dress" for men would be broadfall pants and suspenders, particularly in the fashion of broadfall pants sewn at home, just like women's cape dresses still are. However, the Mennonite groups they were part of had already become so worldly that they had shifted their fashions for pants to worldly pants, and, of course, the last thing a conservative Anabaptist is ever willing to do is perhaps restore a tradition that has been lost. So plain coats it is.

(Full disclosure: my denomination does not use plain coats and never has.)

[Ernie]

I finally got around to watching this lecture. Here are my stray thoughts.

I think your critique is valid.
Regarding #1, I guess it depends on whether a person believes that every Sunday sermon should be expository, or whether there is room for variety. Shippensburg Fellowship does get plenty of expository preaching. So adding in something like this occasionally doesn't bother me.

Regarding #2, again I think your critique is valid. We could ask whether the net effect of Evangelicalism produces more NT principled living or more lawlessness. In some cases I think it has produced NT principled living, but more broadly, I think it has produced a lot of lawlessness. But then the same thing could be said about the Amish. Some Amish communities produce NT principled living. Many others make room for lawlessness and a form of Godliness without the power. I don't think it is possible to paint them with one broad bush.

[Ernie]

I'm thinking that this post from earlier in this thread might deserve further discussion.

I think sociologically, he makes a quite compelling case for the preservation of traditional Anabaptist cultures. I'd say his approach is a welcome change from trying to twist Scripture to support Anabaptist cultural practices. I think he needs to think through his idea and develop better arguments in some places.

He commented that the Amish have made a larger impact than evangelicals on the culture. I think that's just false - evangelicals have had a tremendous impact on American culture. You can dislike the evangelical influence, but that doesn't negate it. The Amish have great name recognition - thanks to Hollywood and tourism. People see the Amish as a representation of the pre-industrial way of living. There is for the most part tremendous respect for the Amish - that is more or less deserved, but outsiders joining the Amish is not seen as a serious possibility by the Amish or outsiders.

I quite enjoyed the autobiographical sketch at the beginning which helped me understand his thought process. I would also add to context that Shippensburg Fellowship was a flagship church of the intentional conservative Anabaptist movement of the late 80s and 90s. Based on my third-degree connections to Shippensburg, I would say 25% of the second generation are at Shippensburg or similar church, 15% BMAish, and 60% non-Plain. Shippensburg probably had the best Anabaptist teaching and preaching. They were focused on discipleship and developing close community. This isn't the kind of retention rate you would expect. Why? My understanding is that at one point 30% of the people at Shippensburg were from non-Anabaptist backgrounds. Many of their children left and then children of cradle Anabaptists left as well. It's been a few years but the last I knew, only 5-10% of the folks from non-Anabaptist backgrounds were still at Shippensburg. (To be fair, their sister church in Chambersburg is more Kingdom Christian than Mennonite and I'd guess they have 40% non-Anabaptist background folks.) This is my sociological opinion - not a theological statement, but churches that are welcoming of outsiders will have lower retention rates than insular communities.

We can think theologically or sociologically, sometimes we can integrate the two. But that which is sociologically prudent doesn't always line up with the New Testament.