Lily philips and the disgrace of pornography

[Heirbyadoption]

The FBI and other law enforcement agencies says the law extends to AI imagery of child porn (or child porn using actors over 18 who look like children) because even if no minors were involved in the production, the distribution of such porn still fosters an environment in which the sexual exploitation of children is normalized.

... which is entirely a matter of freedom of speech for adults (assuming they're the ones running the AI software), and has nothing to do with children doing or not doing anything.

Free speech is not a universal and unlimited right.

Ah, interesting. So it WOULD be possible to outlaw pornography, then?

John, I'd be interesting in your thought process on this - let's just say we could make pornography (and/or other immoral but currently legal things) illegal. What exactly would you expect (or at least want) to effect by doing so? If you'd already answered that, I apologize - I was busy over the weekend and tried to wade through the last 11 pages this morning as best I could.

[JohnH]

The FBI and other law enforcement agencies says the law extends to AI imagery of child porn (or child porn using actors over 18 who look like children) because even if no minors were involved in the production, the distribution of such porn still fosters an environment in which the sexual exploitation of children is normalized.

... which is entirely a matter of freedom of speech for adults (assuming they're the ones running the AI software), and has nothing to do with children doing or not doing anything.

Free speech is not a universal and unlimited right.

Ah, interesting. So it WOULD be possible to outlaw pornography, then?

John, I'd be interesting in your thought process on this - let's just say we could make pornography (and/or other immoral but currently legal things) illegal. What exactly would you expect (or at least want) to effect by doing so? If you'd already answered that, I apologize - I was busy over the weekend and tried to wade through the last 11 pages this morning as best I could.

It’s not a pragmatic goal. It is, rather, an observation that blatantly immoral things should be illegal.

An example is murder. Murder should be illegal.

I don’t have some “goal” by saying this, or some effect on society I want to see. I am just flatly saying it should be illegal.

[Heirbyadoption]

... which is entirely a matter of freedom of speech for adults (assuming they're the ones running the AI software), and has nothing to do with children doing or not doing anything. Ah, interesting. So it WOULD be possible to outlaw pornography, then?

John, I'd be interesting in your thought process on this - let's just say we could make pornography (and/or other immoral but currently legal things) illegal. What exactly would you expect (or at least want) to effect by doing so? If you'd already answered that, I apologize - I was busy over the weekend and tried to wade through the last 11 pages this morning as best I could.

It’s not a pragmatic goal. It is, rather, an observation that blatantly immoral things should be illegal. An example is murder. Murder should be illegal. I don’t have some “goal” by saying this, or some effect on society I want to see. I am just flatly saying it should be illegal.

I think I understand that, am not meaning to put you on the defensive with my question. Here's the thing: blatantly immoral things are already immoral, I'm pretty sure that's not in dispute here - but making them illegal DOES imply an action by society with an intended effect. So let me rephrase it then: If we accept your premise that blatantly immoral things should be illegal and it could be made so, what specific results would you expect to see as a result of that criminalization of those things?

[JohnH]

John, I'd be interesting in your thought process on this - let's just say we could make pornography (and/or other immoral but currently legal things) illegal. What exactly would you expect (or at least want) to effect by doing so? If you'd already answered that, I apologize - I was busy over the weekend and tried to wade through the last 11 pages this morning as best I could.

It’s not a pragmatic goal. It is, rather, an observation that blatantly immoral things should be illegal. An example is murder. Murder should be illegal. I don’t have some “goal” by saying this, or some effect on society I want to see. I am just flatly saying it should be illegal.

I think I understand that, am not meaning to put you on the defensive with my question. Here's the thing: blatantly immoral things are already immoral, I'm pretty sure that's not in dispute here - but making them illegal DOES imply an action by society with an intended effect. So let me rephrase it then: If we accept your premise that blatantly immoral things should be illegal and it could be made so, what specific results would you expect to see as a result of that criminalization of those things?

I’ll put it this way: currently, it’s illegal to produce and distribute and sell pornography involving 17 year olds. I think that’s a very good thing and positive benefits for everyone involved, and essentially almost no downside.

I would like to see the same positive benefits extended to 18 year olds.

[Heirbyadoption]

It’s not a pragmatic goal. It is, rather, an observation that blatantly immoral things should be illegal. An example is murder. Murder should be illegal. I don’t have some “goal” by saying this, or some effect on society I want to see. I am just flatly saying it should be illegal.

I think I understand that, am not meaning to put you on the defensive with my question. Here's the thing: blatantly immoral things are already immoral, I'm pretty sure that's not in dispute here - but making them illegal DOES imply an action by society with an intended effect. So let me rephrase it then: If we accept your premise that blatantly immoral things should be illegal and it could be made so, what specific results would you expect to see as a result of that criminalization of those things?

I’ll put it this way: currently, it’s illegal to produce and distribute and sell pornography involving 17 year olds. I think that’s a very good thing and positive benefits for everyone involved, and essentially almost no downside. I would like to see the same positive benefits extended to 18 year olds.

I understand that. I'm going to assume you're not avoiding my question on purpose and try again. Can you share with us what positive benefits results you feel would extend to those over 18 by not only teaching them that pornography is immoral, but also by specifically making it illegal?

[JohnH]

I think I understand that, am not meaning to put you on the defensive with my question. Here's the thing: blatantly immoral things are already immoral, I'm pretty sure that's not in dispute here - but making them illegal DOES imply an action by society with an intended effect. So let me rephrase it then: If we accept your premise that blatantly immoral things should be illegal and it could be made so, what specific results would you expect to see as a result of that criminalization of those things?

I’ll put it this way: currently, it’s illegal to produce and distribute and sell pornography involving 17 year olds. I think that’s a very good thing and positive benefits for everyone involved, and essentially almost no downside. I would like to see the same positive benefits extended to 18 year olds.

I understand that. I'm going to assume you're not avoiding my question on purpose and try again. Can you share with us what positive benefits results you feel would extend to those over 18 by not only teaching them that pornography is immoral, but also by specifically making it illegal?

The impact on a young life (and I’d extend this to 19… 20… for the sake of this discussion, since we don’t allow young adults to buy cigarettes or beer at that age) is overwhelmingly negative. The system is full of exploitation and very harmful practices. The end result of what is produced and then consumed is also harmful for the consumer.

I see no reason it should be tolerated. Plenty of other people have written about how harmful pornography is to young people who get sucked into it.

[Heirbyadoption]

I’ll put it this way: currently, it’s illegal to produce and distribute and sell pornography involving 17 year olds. I think that’s a very good thing and positive benefits for everyone involved, and essentially almost no downside. I would like to see the same positive benefits extended to 18 year olds.

I understand that. I'm going to assume you're not avoiding my question on purpose and try again. Can you share with us what positive benefits results you feel would extend to those over 18 by not only teaching them that pornography is immoral, but also by specifically making it illegal?

The impact on a young life (and I’d extend this to 19… 20… for the sake of this discussion, since we don’t allow young adults to buy cigarettes or beer at that age) is overwhelmingly negative. The system is full of exploitation and very harmful practices. The end result of what is produced and then consumed is also harmful for the consumer.

I see no reason it should be tolerated. Plenty of other people have written about how harmful pornography is to young people who get sucked into it.

So if I understand you correctly, your thought is that criminalizing it will lessen the negative/harmful impacts of pornography on individuals by (presumably) making it less available, or at least riskier to obtain? Again I'm hoping you can share beyond generalities here, because making something illegal presupposes it will have specific effects on the citizens of the system in which it is made illegal. So once again, regardless of what others have written, this discussion predicates on your premise that pornography should be made legal, so could you share with us some specific positive benefits or results you feel would extend to those over 18 if pornography were made illegal, other than simply a general reply such as there would be "less negative impacts"? I'm not poking here, I'd really love to unpack the idea you are presenting here, which in a nutshell is a suggestion to legally criminalize sin.

[JohnH]

I understand that. I'm going to assume you're not avoiding my question on purpose and try again. Can you share with us what positive benefits results you feel would extend to those over 18 by not only teaching them that pornography is immoral, but also by specifically making it illegal?

The impact on a young life (and I’d extend this to 19… 20… for the sake of this discussion, since we don’t allow young adults to buy cigarettes or beer at that age) is overwhelmingly negative. The system is full of exploitation and very harmful practices. The end result of what is produced and then consumed is also harmful for the consumer.

I see no reason it should be tolerated. Plenty of other people have written about how harmful pornography is to young people who get sucked into it.

So if I understand you correctly, your thought is that criminalizing it will lessen the negative/harmful impacts of pornography on individuals by (presumably) making it less available, or at least riskier to obtain? Again I'm hoping you can share beyond generalities here, because making something illegal presupposes it will have specific effects on the citizens of the system in which it is made illegal. So once again, regardless of what others have written, this discussion predicates on your premise that pornography should be made legal, so could you share with us some specific positive benefits or results you feel would extend to those over 18 if pornography were made illegal, other than simply a general reply such as there would be "less negative impacts"? I'm not poking here, I'd really love to unpack the idea you are presenting here, which in a nutshell is a suggestion to legally criminalize sin.

The exact same benefits we get from making it illegal for 17 year olds.

[Heirbyadoption]

The impact on a young life (and I’d extend this to 19… 20… for the sake of this discussion, since we don’t allow young adults to buy cigarettes or beer at that age) is overwhelmingly negative. The system is full of exploitation and very harmful practices. The end result of what is produced and then consumed is also harmful for the consumer.

I see no reason it should be tolerated. Plenty of other people have written about how harmful pornography is to young people who get sucked into it.

So if I understand you correctly, your thought is that criminalizing it will lessen the negative/harmful impacts of pornography on individuals by (presumably) making it less available, or at least riskier to obtain? Again I'm hoping you can share beyond generalities here, because making something illegal presupposes it will have specific effects on the citizens of the system in which it is made illegal. So once again, regardless of what others have written, this discussion predicates on your premise that pornography should be made legal, so could you share with us some specific positive benefits or results you feel would extend to those over 18 if pornography were made illegal, other than simply a general reply such as there would be "less negative impacts"? I'm not poking here, I'd really love to unpack the idea you are presenting here, which in a nutshell is a suggestion to legally criminalize sin.

The exact same benefits we get from making it illegal for 17 year olds.

Ok. So What would be a few specific, non-generic examples?

[JohnH]

So if I understand you correctly, your thought is that criminalizing it will lessen the negative/harmful impacts of pornography on individuals by (presumably) making it less available, or at least riskier to obtain? Again I'm hoping you can share beyond generalities here, because making something illegal presupposes it will have specific effects on the citizens of the system in which it is made illegal. So once again, regardless of what others have written, this discussion predicates on your premise that pornography should be made legal, so could you share with us some specific positive benefits or results you feel would extend to those over 18 if pornography were made illegal, other than simply a general reply such as there would be "less negative impacts"? I'm not poking here, I'd really love to unpack the idea you are presenting here, which in a nutshell is a suggestion to legally criminalize sin.

The exact same benefits we get from making it illegal for 17 year olds.

Ok. So What would be a few specific, non-generic examples?

Protecting people from the harm of the exploitation that goes on in the pornography industry, to give one example.

Note that I have a presupposition that pornography is harmful. (I hope I won't need to debate this here.) As a society, we have generally decided that sometimes something is so harmful (such as cigarettes or beer) that we don't allow "consenting adults" to partake of it. I think pornography should be one of those things.