Are the Turtles Beating us?

[Ernie]

Well... it appears that you didn't get much benefit from the sermon.
The things that were worth taking the time to write about were the things you disagreed with.
In the future, I will not be offended if you don't bother listening to sermons that I link to and do something with your time that feels more worthwhile...

[Josh]

Sudsy,

I would respectfully ask that you listen to the sermon again, as he answered several of your chief objections. Try to listen with an open mind, instead of just looking for something to challenge what he said or to disagree with.

Like myself, he had a family background in precisely the kind of church model you are proposing is somehow the best way - except that, just like my family's experience, there doesn't seem to be much population growth nor multi-generational stability in those settings. Hence the question, "Are the turtles beating us?" We may all have a thing or two to learn from our Amish neighbours who, despite many criticisms of how they aren't "spiritual" enough, are indeed raising far more Christ-followers than my devout Quaker great-great-grandparents managed to, or my (presumably devout) distant ancestor who was a Catholic and later Anglican bishop managed to.

[Valerie]

He was open to pushback. Sudsy gave pushback. Sudsy raised legitimate pushback that Anabaptists seem to immediately shut down without actually answering- it seems. It is why some have left the Anabaptist movement and it MN at not necessarily be because of their unwillingness to yield to the brotherhood but instead see it the way Sudsy pointed out, more focus on yielding to the Spirits leading in areas that have nothing to do with outward dress-

[ken_sylvania]

He was open to pushback. Sudsy gave pushback. Sudsy raised legitimate pushback that Anabaptists seem to immediately shut down without actually answering- it seems. It is why some have left the Anabaptist movement and it MN at not necessarily be because of their unwillingness to yield to the brotherhood but instead see it the way Sudsy pointed out, more focus on yielding to the Spirits leading in areas that have nothing to do with outward dress-

We've answered those criticisms often enough - it's not accurate to claim that we shut them down without answering.

[Valerie]

He was open to pushback. Sudsy gave pushback. Sudsy raised legitimate pushback that Anabaptists seem to immediately shut down without actually answering- it seems. It is why some have left the Anabaptist movement and it MN at not necessarily be because of their unwillingness to yield to the brotherhood but instead see it the way Sudsy pointed out, more focus on yielding to the Spirits leading in areas that have nothing to do with outward dress-

We've answered those criticisms often enough - it's not accurate to claim that we shut them down without answering.

Well that is true. At the same time, what he shared the pastor shared has been repeated so often, but from my observation, I've been never read a really good answer "to" Sudsy. But if you're from that background/heritage, that is why.

We listen and visit a Church that a pastor from Amish then Mennonite background came from. But as soon as he was baptized in the Holy Spirit he no longer fit the Anabaptist "culture" this pastor is promoting adherence to. Yet, this Pastor we do hold in high esteem, his Church is full of various former Amish & Mennonites that were looking for a more Spirit filled focus without outward distinctives and it seems to still have a strong brotherhood atmosphere, a lot of love, sacrificial giving, and people aren't casual dress at Church on Sunday so I see Sudsy's point "working" at this Church that is about 38 years now and there doesn't seem to be an unyielded spirit this man seems is inevitable just because they don't see certain distinctives as necessary. Yes as he points out, Jesus was Jewish and they had distinctives but the Cross and Holy Spirit opened up to the world, a Christianity that the Apostles did not put those requirements on and he seems to have forgotten that.

[Valerie]

Sudsy,

I would respectfully ask that you listen to the sermon again, as he answered several of your chief objections. Try to listen with an open mind, instead of just looking for something to challenge what he said or to disagree with.

Like myself, he had a family background in precisely the kind of church model you are proposing is somehow the best way - except that, just like my family's experience, there doesn't seem to be much population growth nor multi-generational stability in those settings. Hence the question, "Are the turtles beating us?" We may all have a thing or two to learn from our Amish neighbours who, despite many criticisms of how they aren't "spiritual" enough, are indeed raising far more Christ-followers than my devout Quaker great-great-grandparents managed to, or my (presumably devout) distant ancestor who was a Catholic and later Anglican bishop managed to.

I thought he said he had Amish and Mennonite heritage?
I listened with an open mind. I love much about Anabaptist people but I still agree with Sudsy, and I don't feel unyielded just because I think his emphasis on an Anabaptist "looking" culture is not Scriptural. I think he has drawn inaccurate conclusions. God does look at the heart. I get the whole idea of being upset that a former old order came in a tee shirt and shorts- yes, that is too casual- the OO may be trying to break free of unscriptural requirements and may be misdiagnosed- I know we can all connect dots wrongly at times.

I took came from a Jesus "culture" very casual in the ,70s because the focus was reaching lost young people into drugs and rock, and convert them to the true and living God. It was a time very much like Acts 15 council where it was decided not to put so many standards on these new concerts and focus on inward changes.

[Sudsy]

Well... it appears that you didn't get much benefit from the sermon.
The things that were worth taking the time to write about were the things you disagreed with.
In the future, I will not be offended if you don't bother listening to sermons that I link to and do something with your time that feels more worthwhile...

I followed your OP instructions and this asked us to discuss this message so I gave my impressions on what was preached. Perhaps you should have done as you have previously on some threads you created and gave instructions that you only want to hear from those who are CMs or some other filtering criteria that would keep some of us out of the discussion.

In the future, try not to be offended when you ask for discussion from forum members and people challenge some content of what is being presented.

[Sudsy]

Sudsy,

I would respectfully ask that you listen to the sermon again, as he answered several of your chief objections. Try to listen with an open mind, instead of just looking for something to challenge what he said or to disagree with.

Like myself, he had a family background in precisely the kind of church model you are proposing is somehow the best way - except that, just like my family's experience, there doesn't seem to be much population growth nor multi-generational stability in those settings. Hence the question, "Are the turtles beating us?" We may all have a thing or two to learn from our Amish neighbours who, despite many criticisms of how they aren't "spiritual" enough, are indeed raising far more Christ-followers than my devout Quaker great-great-grandparents managed to, or my (presumably devout) distant ancestor who was a Catholic and later Anglican bishop managed to.

You have your opinions as do I. How you see some things, I see them differently. I have watched this video twice now to see what I might be missing and I just disagree with his solution and some of your perceptions on the Amish and other Christian faith groups. I do agree that believers do exist amongst the Amish and other Christian groups but any group that withdraws themselves from those Christ came to save the way they do is not following Christ as He exampled. He did not 'come out from among them' in the way Amish have. If we all took the Amish approach to living the Christian life very few in the world would ever become Christ followers. That is my perception of their ways and I don't mind others trying to prove to me otherwise.

[Bootstrap]

In the future, try not to be offended when you ask for discussion from forum members and people challenge some content of what is being presented.

I wonder if it would be helpful to split this topic?

I found the video really helpful for seeing how some plain people think about this. I think parts of this probably make more sense to them than they do to me. I think it would be useful to have a discussion among plain people to draw these things out, where non-plain people can ask clarifying questions, but not debate or question them. I think it would also be useful to have a discussion among non-plain people to explain why we don't find this compelling, where plain people can ask clarifying questions, but not debate or question them.

I would rather see two different threads, where two different points of view can be developed, than a single thread where the views are in competition.

[Ernie]

In the future, try not to be offended when you ask for discussion from forum members and people challenge some content of what is being presented.

Not offended. Just didn't want to waste your time in the future.