Apostasy of the 1960s-Chester Weaver-Anabaptist Perspectives

[cmbl]

As I also moved into that, we believed that the preceding generations had really walked away, and that we were returning to true anabaptism. But this was not a 'revival' but rather a revitalization movement. (I attempted to explain this in another thread, and it did not garner any interest, so I won't belabor it here again.)

It may not have garnered responses there, but it did garner my interest at least.

[Ernie]

I like your term "aggresso-conservatism," it encapsulates some of the energy found in those movements. I think its safe to say neither side of this split became who they wanted to be after the divorced. Once un-tethered, the breakaway momentum is not easily arrested and may accelerate.

Yes. This became evident to me a few years ago when some churches left Eastern (EPMC) and started a new conference called Appalachian Mennonite Church. I didn't think it was possible to to outdo EPMC, but once you get that freight train rolling, it rolls along and picks up momentum, just like the freight train heading the opposite direction.

[DrWojo]

I like your term "aggresso-conservatism," it encapsulates some of the energy found in those movements. I think its safe to say neither side of this split became who they wanted to be after the divorced. Once un-tethered, the breakaway momentum is not easily arrested and may accelerate.

Yes. This became evident to me a few years ago when some churches left Eastern (EPMC) and started a new conference called Appalachian Mennonite Church. I didn't think it was possible to to outdo EPMC, but once you get that freight train rolling, it rolls along and picks up momentum, just like the freight train heading the opposite direction.

So, if you don’t like the flavor, Change the Brand?

[Judas Maccabeus]

I like your term "aggresso-conservatism," it encapsulates some of the energy found in those movements. I think its safe to say neither side of this split became who they wanted to be after the divorced. Once un-tethered, the breakaway momentum is not easily arrested and may accelerate.

Yes. This became evident to me a few years ago when some churches left Eastern (EPMC) and started a new conference called Appalachian Mennonite Church. I didn't think it was possible to to outdo EPMC, but once you get that freight train rolling, it rolls along and picks up momentum, just like the freight train heading the opposite direction.

Appalachian Mennonite Church? Tell me more, if you can.

J.M.

[ohio jones]

Appalachian Mennonite Church? Tell me more, if you can.

Previously mentioned here and here.

[Ms. Izzie]

The content is consistent with what I've heard Chester speak on previously. I'm sure it serves his purposes to highlight only the good that has come from aggresso-conservatism, but it would be better on the whole if he could be straightforward about the shortfalls of taking a separatist path. While he is right that many problems have surfaced in mainstream groups over the last 50 years, a different set of problems has become apparent in the conservative movement. Surely each generation can learn from both the wisdom and the mistakes of their predecessors.

Could you tell us about what you see as the shortfalls and problems that are apparent in the conservative movement? One that I see is the endless splitting of churches and many of these splits have animosity on both sides. Jesus told us that His disciples would be known by their love for each other.

[Ms. Izzie]

I still find it difficult to understand the word gelassenheit, which seems really important to Mr. Weaver. If everything contained in that word is like the holy grail, I think it would be helpful to use words in the language of the people who hear it and that it be contained in a nutshell, instead of a sermon.

I do agree with him that many Mennonites do not know their history. (Nor do they care that they don't know.)

[Neto]

I still find it difficult to understand the word gelassenheit, which seems really important to Mr. Weaver. If everything contained in that word is like the holy grail, I think it would be helpful to use words in the language of the people who hear it and that it be contained in a nutshell, instead of a sermon.

I do agree with him that many Mennonites do not know their history. (Nor do they care that they don't know.)

I cannot "like" this post enough. As a linguist and a Bible translator, I understand that some words are very difficult to translate, and one cannot expect a one-word equivalent. But Ms. Izzie makes a very important point here - Very Few People Here Know German!. And I've talked with Amish men about this term (at least one minister), and they cannot explain it easily, either. Plus, it doesn't resonate with me (as a Dutch Mennonite) because the Dutch didn't use this term. They actually have a word that is obviously the same word ("gelatenheid"), but they use a different word, spelled two ways in the Dutch language: "lijdzaamheid", or "leijdzaamheid". (Another word is listed as a synonym: "berusting".)

But using a word in a foreign language to "explain" a doctrinal position is like "secret knowledge", and if a person is serious about communicating, one must find a word in the language being spoken.

I should get off of my soap box now, or high horse, or what ever you want to call it. But in Bible translation, I avoided as much as possible just taking the short-cut of transliterating a source language word instead of actually translating it. Example: If I had "translated" batizo as "batisano" in the Banawa Scriptures. Some might think the translator "cannot do better than the early English translators" (who made up the word "baptize"), or that it should be translated by the functional meaning of the word (which by etymology would be 'immerse', or 'submerse') instead of by its symbolic meaning, which, in my opinion (and in the opinion of a sufficient number of exegetes over the years) that it passed all of the translation consultant checks translated as 'wash'. So that's part of the reason I would also insist that people explain what they mean in English - I am only holding you all to the same standard to which I held myself.
As some one here often says, I'll go back in my corner now.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Appalachian Mennonite Church? Tell me more, if you can.

Previously mentioned here and here.

Ah, yes. Appalachian Mountain Church. Google did not give me the keys to this. Looking at the info, I doubt if any of them care.

J.M.

[ohio jones]

The content is consistent with what I've heard Chester speak on previously. I'm sure it serves his purposes to highlight only the good that has come from aggresso-conservatism, but it would be better on the whole if he could be straightforward about the shortfalls of taking a separatist path. While he is right that many problems have surfaced in mainstream groups over the last 50 years, a different set of problems has become apparent in the conservative movement. Surely each generation can learn from both the wisdom and the mistakes of their predecessors.

Could you tell us about what you see as the shortfalls and problems that are apparent in the conservative movement? One that I see is the endless splitting of churches and many of these splits have animosity on both sides. Jesus told us that His disciples would be known by their love for each other.

Yes, that is certainly one of them. Here are a few more that come to mind:
1. Isolationism (sometimes a by-product of the splitting) that involves separating not only from The World but from other Christians with an attitude of superiority that looks a whole lot like prIde.
2. Bounded set vs. centered set thinking, uniformity vs. unity, prioritizing conservatism vs. Christocentrism, rule-based micro-orderliness vs. Spirit-led sometimes-slightly-messiness, however you want to frame that.
3. Making a distinction between The Ministry and The Laity, giving the former too much power (and too little money) and the latter too little autonomy.
4. Hiding sin, especially sexual sin, because it would make us look bad if it became known.

I do not mean to imply that each of these apply to every person or congregation in the conservative movement, but these things seem to be more likely to be present on the conservative end of the spectrum, and can be toxic when they synergize.

To Chester’s credit, I have heard him speak out about the last one. And perhaps he has on some of the others, just not that I’m quite as aware of.