Burned by serious Christians

[steve-in-kville]

Wow, so 'being burnt' can be looked at as an opportunity to mature in God.

This is the stage I am in. As I said before, it made me a stronger person. It forced me to be true to myself, which is something the bulk majority of conservative people can't do. They are too caught up trying be a "good Mennonite" instead of a good Christian. Its all about being part of a culture instead of being part of the Kingdom.

(Sorry to get so preachy.)

[silentreader]

Wow, so 'being burnt' can be looked at as an opportunity to mature in God.

This is the stage I am in. As I said before, it made me a stronger person. It forced me to be true to myself, which is something the bulk majority of conservative people can't do. They are too caught up trying be a "good Mennonite" instead of a good Christian. Its all about being part of a culture instead of being part of the Kingdom.

(Sorry to get so preachy.)

Curious, how does being "true to self" make one a better Christian, which is what it seems to me you are suggesting?

[steve-in-kville]

Curious, how does being "true to self" make one a better Christian, which is what it seems to me you are suggesting?

This is the short answer, I can elaborate if needed... basically I'm not living a lie. I'm where God wants me to be. Many folks in the conservative groups are just living a culture. Not all, but many, hence the reason people push the fence or look for loopholes... they secretly wish to worship elsewhere but peer/family pressure keeps them in their home church. So they fake their way through it.

Here's a test: when someone leaves your church, how does everyone else react? Do they wish them the best? Or slander their name? A church-goer's true colors come out when someone leaves the fold!!

[Valerie]

I was burned a few times over the years. When we left the Mennonite church, it was all out "character assassination." Our names were pretty much mud. Rumors, slander, you name it. The reason for it was: I wasn't keeping quiet anymore. To allow healing I needed to tell my side of the story, a story I kept to myself for 9+ years.

I needed to learn to accept and forgive. God allowed it to happen and I feel it made me a stronger person in the end. It also taught me to be true to myself, to march to the beat of my own drum. To not be something I'm not (I'd make a horrible Mennonite!!).

In the end, I don't regret what happened. I just wish it wasn't so painful. There are many deep wounds that haven't entirely healed yet.

We met a man who was adopted by Mennonites- and his experience was so painful to him that he said he could 'take down the whole denomination' by what he could share (I don't think that was limited to his own experience but what he was aware of overall)

However- although he seemed to know 'too much' I felt he needed so much healing, forgivness is such an important part of our daily walk with Christ. We had a discussion about this at length this morning (hubby & I)- our hearts can deceive us- they can become hardened (and easily, if we are not careful) and we discussed the importance of daily coming to Christ with all of this and to pray for those who have hurt us and confess it as sin to harbor resentment, unforgivenss or any possible slander we vocalised- any gossip- for Him to shine the light on our hearts to leave nothing 'unturned'. If we are sincerely wanting our hearts right with Him, we will want all of this to be cast on Him, out of us, away from us- and He will give us grace in this because- well- it is in accordance to His will that we walk in love and forgiveness. It isn't always easy but He is able as we yield to Him.

We will pray for you- sometimes we have forgiven but the pain can return in remembering the circumstance- may those be the scars that reveal His unconditional love for us and His desire is that we 'press on' not looking back- (I was hurt by brothers & sisters in the Lord when I started covering my head, called 'legalistic' treated like I was in a 'cult' etc from people I knew for quite awhile, made fun of, called Amish (as a joke) for wearing skirts/dresses and a change overall away from the fashion of the day) just recently again attacked that way from someone I knew a long time) so I am not unable to relate to the being burnt by serious Christians-
One of my favorite passages to live by with God's help:
Philippians 3:
Pressing Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been perfected, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.…

I have seen enough such people come and go in Mennonite churches that I always take such stories with a grain of salt. Every story has two sides. While I am well aware of the weaknesses and failures of my chosen brotherhood, I also know sometimes seekers have weaknesses as well. When these weaknesses collide, it makes a problem. I'm not willing to take sides in most of these collisions, because normally both sides had failures. My main desire is to show people that there are people who want to help them find their way through such trauma.

But when someone tells me something like the highlighted above, I walk away because it is obviously untenable.

I imagine it is very difficult for those who have come from Anabaptist heritage to cope well with seekers always- I know there is an Amish community in Maine (an Elmo Stoll branch, if that's the right word) and many seekers came and stayed- left the world. I can sympathize with how difficult it is to take on the world- it makes me mindful of the Jewish Apostles when converting Gentiles to Christianity- and of course we know the problems with mixing Jewish converts with Gentile converts- culture and heritage do enter into the difficulties.

As for the bolded statement- when a root of bitterness or unforgivenss has not been plucked out, it can cause one to seek revenge, even in a self deceptive sort of way- we realized the man has some issues- he has produced a couple of books- I read one, as that is how we met at a 'meet the author' day in Holmes County, local authors-this person has found his way into the charismatic movement and in one that caused us to leave the pentecostal/charismatic movement altogether- but if it has influenced you, like it did him, it will definite collide with his former Mennonite upbringing, which he is now very convinced against. Yet there is a 'spirit' in that movement that is so troubling to us that he surely would have been better off to remain Mennonite (imo) even with what he saw as failings.

[Bootstrap]

I started this thread because of other threads where people were griping loudly about groups they had left without reflecting much on what they had learned or how they are moving forward. Let me repeat the OP, then let me answer for myself.

Many people I know who have pursued serious Christianity have been burned badly by a person or group they thought of as serious Christians and as brethren.

Sometimes it is abusive authority. Sometimes it is sexual abuse or financial fraud. Sometimes it is a kind of passive-aggressive manipulation. Sometimes it is simply false teaching.

How does that affect our lives moving forward in discipleship? How do we continue to trust and love and give when we have had this kind of experience? How do we protect ourselves against this moving forward?

First off, it was really important for me to have a time of healing and reflection, seeking God's will for how my life should move forward and what he was calling me to now. Part of that was learning how to come to grips with having thought God was calling me in a direction that did not work out - and I learned that God had used this time to form me, even if the community itself went South.

Part of that was learning that my life no longer revolved around them and that their opinion of me was not important in my daily life, especially since I was being formally shunned at the time. I decided, in discerning prayer with others, that it was not my job to try to explain my side of the story to people in the community or to speak to the public about them. Doing either of these things meant letting my life revolve around them, and I got stuck in outrage and bitterness. But I did need to learn more about what I was looking for in a community and what I see as danger signs. I also needed to learn more about how I would pursue serious Christianity outside of that community, which obviously wasn't going to work for me.

I found other serious biblical Christians in settings that were not intentional communities, people whose love I knew I could trust, who did not try to manipulate me. I also re-established some friendships with people like that from the intentional community I had been in over the years, most had left, some had not. I have visited a handful of intentional communities since then, thinking I would eventually join one, but that just doesn't seem to be the direction God is calling me in. I have seen some very attractive lives of faith in some of these communities. I have visited a handful of plain Mennonite churches too, and have seen some very attractive lives of faith in some of these churches.

I'm wary of generalizations about all Mennonites or all serious Christians or all conservative Christians or all intentional communities. They vary quite a bit. People within a given community can be significantly different. I may not understand them all that well because they often form their own cultures that are hard for me to grasp - I know that was true of the community I was part of. I do think it's helpful to make lists of warning signs, and even better to make lists of what I am actually looking for.

Things like these:

- Are they really following Jesus, what he said and did?
- Does the Bible really form their daily life? Do they trust what it says and put it into practice?
- Is the love real? How do they treat each other? How do they treat people they disagree with? Do they love only those who love them, like the tax collectors? Do they care for their own? Do they serve beyond their own group?
- Do they have the kind of authority that loves to lord it over others?
- How do they approach spiritual discernment, as individuals and as a group?
- Are they full of the fruit of the Spirit? How much of the fruit of the flesh do they show?

In general, I think it's most helpful to clearly identify what good looks like and pursue it. I don't think it's nearly as helpful to put my former group on trial, that's all in God's hands, and I hope that he has led them in the right direction since then.

[Bootstrap]

Here's a test: when someone leaves your church, how does everyone else react? Do they wish them the best? Or slander their name? A church-goer's true colors come out when someone leaves the fold!!

I think the test works both ways: when someone leave a church, how do they react Do they wish the church the best? Or slander their name? A Christian's true colors come out when they have serious disagreements with other Christians.

Both churches and individuals often flunk this test. But for me, at least, learning to let go and forgive was a big part of getting my life back and moving forward in discipleship.

We've learned some of the same things - living a culture is not the same thing as living for Jesus, peer pressure is not the same thing as personal holiness or loving God and loving neighbor. But I have certainly seen other groups of plain Mennonites who seem to have genuine love and wisdom. I think it's possible to be clear about what you have learned without tearing down an entire branch of Christianity.

I'm where God wants me to be.

Can you tell me more about where you are now and how you got there? I'd like to learn from how you have moved forward.

[Hats Off]

Thanks, Bootstrap. I am in a place where I need to do much of what you mention. I have been burned badly and have lost confidence and find it difficult to let go. I don't want to leave where I am; I just want to forgive. I would so like to help the body where we are to do better. It should not be necessary that the same problems come up over and over.

[Sudsy]

I started this thread because of other threads where people were griping loudly about groups they had left without reflecting much on what they had learned or how they are moving forward. Let me repeat the OP, then let me answer for myself.

Many people I know who have pursued serious Christianity have been burned badly by a person or group they thought of as serious Christians and as brethren.

Sometimes it is abusive authority. Sometimes it is sexual abuse or financial fraud. Sometimes it is a kind of passive-aggressive manipulation. Sometimes it is simply false teaching.

How does that affect our lives moving forward in discipleship? How do we continue to trust and love and give when we have had this kind of experience? How do we protect ourselves against this moving forward?

First off, it was really important for me to have a time of healing and reflection, seeking God's will for how my life should move forward and what he was calling me to now. Part of that was learning how to come to grips with having thought God was calling me in a direction that did not work out - and I learned that God had used this time to form me, even if the community itself went South.

Part of that was learning that my life no longer revolved around them and that their opinion of me was not important in my daily life, especially since I was being formally shunned at the time. I decided, in discerning prayer with others, that it was not my job to try to explain my side of the story to people in the community or to speak to the public about them. Doing either of these things meant letting my life revolve around them, and I got stuck in outrage and bitterness. But I did need to learn more about what I was looking for in a community and what I see as danger signs. I also needed to learn more about how I would pursue serious Christianity outside of that community, which obviously wasn't going to work for me.

I found other serious biblical Christians in settings that were not intentional communities, people whose love I knew I could trust, who did not try to manipulate me. I also re-established some friendships with people like that from the intentional community I had been in over the years, most had left, some had not. I have visited a handful of intentional communities since then, thinking I would eventually join one, but that just doesn't seem to be the direction God is calling me in. I have seen some very attractive lives of faith in some of these communities. I have visited a handful of plain Mennonite churches too, and have seen some very attractive lives of faith in some of these churches.

I'm wary of generalizations about all Mennonites or all serious Christians or all conservative Christians or all intentional communities. They vary quite a bit. People within a given community can be significantly different. I may not understand them all that well because they often form their own cultures that are hard for me to grasp - I know that was true of the community I was part of. I do think it's helpful to make lists of warning signs, and even better to make lists of what I am actually looking for.

Things like these:

- Are they really following Jesus, what he said and did?
- Does the Bible really form their daily life? Do they trust what it says and put it into practice?
- Is the love real? How do they treat each other? How do they treat people they disagree with? Do they love only those who love them, like the tax collectors? Do they care for their own? Do they serve beyond their own group?
- Do they have the kind of authority that loves to lord it over others?
- How do they approach spiritual discernment, as individuals and as a group?
- Are they full of the fruit of the Spirit? How much of the fruit of the flesh do they show?

In general, I think it's most helpful to clearly identify what good looks like and pursue it. I don't think it's nearly as helpful to put my former group on trial, that's all in God's hands, and I hope that he has led them in the right direction since then.

I think the main lesson I learned when I walked away from doing church that had a growing group of dissatisfied believers came on my next move. I decided if this is how churches go (and many do) where at some point they don't get along, how they treat each other and even split, that I would be better off staying away from today's churches where 'selfish, I want it my way' attitudes seem to get their foot in the door and cause divisision. That was a wrong move and I backslid when I gave up on this imperfect, challenging fellowship. It was years later and going through various trials of life the hard way that I 'came to my senses' (as said of the prodigal son) and turned for home. This turning for home was basically surrendering my will and accepting church community is a primary part of Christ following. We need each other regardless of our imperfections.

God lead me to the Salvation Army in this turning where I knew a couple who had dedicated their lives to the Lord and were examples to me of Christ likeness. There I learned of a whole side of Christianity that was heavy on serving others. Another area I needed in my spiritual development. Where they perfect people ? No, and just prior to my joining them they had gone through a split. But a core group remained that focused on God and others and not on 'having things my way'. Although since then I have moved on to fellowship with other groups of believers and sometimes alone, as my wife had her own faith journey, I will not stop making local church attendance and community involvement as part of my faith journey.

My recommendation to those currently without a local church home is pick a local church, realize they all are imperfect and experience how we were never meant to be on our own. Some use Internet forums and other means to be in a community but it is not the same and I could give various reasons. Imo, this misses out on a huge part of community/body of Christ living. Scripture says that one part of the body cannot say (and be correct) that it doesn't need another part. That isn't only true in local church settings but in the entire family of God.

So, Boot, that list has some ideal qualities that would be wonderul but imo, unrealistic to be searching for in a local community. In my own experiences, even if one finds a church that seems close to these characteristics, once you get inside the door and learn more, they all have Christians who fail and many of these churches will go through turmoil and splits. It seems to me those churches where folks just come and go on a Sunday and don't really have community beyond that will be last to split. Those most keen on following the Lord, satan attacks to keep them from unity and impacting his world. He often wins under the disguise of becoming better Christians.

Imo, the quest for the perfect church that most represents the earliest of Christian churches is a waste of time. Look at history and the many, many groups that split off for their version of what this 'true church' should be and thinking they can produce it. They all fail and often look down on other groups with a Pharisee attitude (Lord I'm glad we are not like those).

My advice would be pick a local church where they allow you to participate with your spiritual gift(s) and serve the Lord and others. If nothing can be found, start a house church. Just don't go it alone. Being part of a local church (your church home even if formal membership requires being too dishonest), I believe, is a must for any believer. That is my conviction on the subject.

[Hats Off]

Boot, I copied that list of qualities - I believe it is very realistic.

[Heirbyadoption]

Many folks in the conservative groups are just living a culture. Not all, but many, hence the reason people push the fence or look for loopholes... they secretly wish to worship elsewhere but peer/family pressure keeps them in their home church. So they fake their way through it.

Steve, this is often true. Something I have struggled with, however, is the flip-side fact that this ISN'T always the case, even when it might look like it to others within a group. It's easy to say "if you're not happy here, you should go somewhere else that fits you better" or "if you can't submit here you need to go find a place where you can", etc.

But in my experience (and this got shot down as unrealistic the last time I shared it several months back, but so be it), the fact is that there are actually a lot of (yes, usually ethnic) folk in my generation (30s-40s) who sometimes come across as pushing the "fence" or seem to be looking for loopholes, as it were, when in reality we aren't secretly wishing to worship anywhere else, nor are we simply remaining due to family or peer pressure. Some believe they are truly in a good Christian fellowship which has simply (over time) established some fences or restrictions that these perceived "fence-pushers" believe are not Scripturally supportable/enforceable, and they wish to remain and live and build within such fellowship, but often their motives and attempts to institute change or discussion on what they perceive as needed change are often smothered or maligned by those who (in their own sincerity) see them as a threat. And yes, sometimes the reactions of those who wish to remain in spite of varying convictions on some issues can enforce such perceptions of themselves as rebels or loophole seekers, but in reality, it simply is not always the case, and they get lumped in with the many who have actually been thus. I wonder how often we stop to ask if perhaps this might be the case when our initial reactions are to assume others are not really happy here or just trying to buck the status quo, rather than making the effort to find out? I'm not pointing fingers at anybody here, just thinking aloud.

I have also appreciated the comments here about people's reactions and comments towards those who leave or those who they leave behind.