POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

Which statement most closely represents your views on Christian political involvement?

 
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PositiveSeeker
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PositiveSeeker »

That's got nothing to do with politics. If someone is engaging in adultery, I can flatly say he needs to repent - regardless of political affiliation.
So if a person is allowing unborn babies to be killed, can we tell that person that he/she needs to repent regardless of political affiliation?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by JimFoxvog »

PositiveSeeker wrote:
That's got nothing to do with politics. If someone is engaging in adultery, I can flatly say he needs to repent - regardless of political affiliation.
So if a person is allowing unborn babies to be killed, can we tell that person that he/she needs to repent regardless of political affiliation?
Or ordering military strikes that will of course kill women (who may be pregnant) and children?

See how it expands?
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Josh
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Josh »

PositiveSeeker wrote:
That's got nothing to do with politics. If someone is engaging in adultery, I can flatly say he needs to repent - regardless of political affiliation.
So if a person is allowing unborn babies to be killed, can we tell that person that he/she needs to repent regardless of political affiliation?
"Allowing?" How are they supposed to stop it? You can't stop abortions other than by force.

I would tell a doctor or a mother that abortion is wrong and that if they have done or are doing so, they need to repent.
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RZehr
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote:
PositiveSeeker wrote:
That's got nothing to do with politics. If someone is engaging in adultery, I can flatly say he needs to repent - regardless of political affiliation.
So if a person is allowing unborn babies to be killed, can we tell that person that he/she needs to repent regardless of political affiliation?
"Allowing?" How are they supposed to stop it? You can't stop abortions other than by force.

I would tell a doctor or a mother that abortion is wrong and that if they have done or are doing so, they need to repent.
Right. Does our lack of action this afternoon in stopping abortion, drunkenness, etc, mean we allowed it?
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PositiveSeeker
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PositiveSeeker »

"Allowing?" How are they supposed to stop it? You can't stop abortions other than by force. I would tell a doctor or a mother that abortion is wrong and that if they have done or are doing so, they need to repent.
Any political figure that is advocating or protecting abortion is allowing it to continue.
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PositiveSeeker
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by PositiveSeeker »

Or ordering military strikes that will of course kill women (who may be pregnant) and children?
IF a Christian were to have a place in politics that would need to be addressed as well.
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Aaron
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by Aaron »

joshuabgood wrote:
Your dualism is more robust than mine...and that's saying something. :)

Your response does beg some important questions however:

What should be the impact of our presence as salt & light in the world? In other words, is the only good that we are to accomplish on earth evangelistic?

If so, why does Jesus really care if we cloth the naked, feed the hungry, care for the least of these, love our neighbor? Just to draw them into the kingdom?

Beyond evangelism, is there any intrinsic value in doing good, in speaking up for the powerless, in standing up systemic evil like greed, slavery, sexual abuse, abortion, genocide, terrorism, etc.?

Are all governments really the same in their depravity? Could they be encouraged to do a better, more just, jobas they carry out their God-ordained responsibility?

Is there a leavening effect we can have on society that might advance the cause of Christ and keep evil somewhat in check?

Does our failure to address systemic injustice do a disservice to its victims?

Could it be that Christ's work on this earth extends through us beyond the boundaries of His Kingdom? Might "the increase of his Kingdom and of peace know no end"? And might this happen incrementally?
I'm honestly wrestling with this stuff these days...without all the answers of course, but having become a bit uncomfortable with some of the conclusions of the "clean dualism" that I have embraced for many years.
Dan -- let me try to illuminate my position a bit futher. (Thanks for your thoughts)

When I say building the kingdom of God I am not talking about a "pie in the sky when we die." The Kingdom of God is on earth and now, I would argue. Therefore, yes building the kingdom means inviting people to immigrate to our kingdom as well as working humanitarian efforts to improve our society and neighbors lots as you describe. That is just as real a part of building the kingdom of God as is the "invitation to immigrate." So no disagreement there. Personally, I don't really even care for the word evangelism in the way I "think" you are using it.

As for all the governments being the same in their depravity. Here is what I would say to that. It might be like asking if the Green River Killer was better than Ted Bundy because he only killed 20-30 instead of 50-100. And should we lecture Ted on how to become less harmful and more like the Green River Killer. Please forgive the macabre response but the point hopefully is made. A murderer is a murderer if they kill only one person. The kingdoms of this world use violence to build their kingdoms of this world. The foundation is wrong no matter if they violate 6 million like Hitler, or 50 million like Stalin (and the USA post abortion). In a similar way, the fact that the state embraces structural violence, to oppress people using coercion, is not part of any redemptive work of God's kingdom. It should be rejected in its entirety in my view. It is the foundation and means of the Kingdoms of this world that I reject completely, that being, an ethic of violence and oppression. The reign of God is not in the kingdoms of this world. Sure, God can use them just like he used the Romans, or Hitler, or earthquakes or ISIS or the USA, somehow in his infinite power, however, those kingdoms are not redeemable and do not serve to positively advance God's kingdom. One might argue, as I am, they have no legitimate role in the reign of God. That is probably where I part ways with you. I see them as evil, and based on violence. And I think you may see them more as helping to usher in peace and equity. I see the reign of God and the Kingdom being nonviolent and based in a law of love and gospel of peace. But then I also find the Penal Substitutionary atonement fairly wanting as well. I would be pretty sympathetic to G Aulus and J Denny Weaver's views.

Lastly as a historical or empirical question, I would challenge you to answer what kingdom of this world (read state) is doing a "righteous" job of wielding violence in a way to establish equity and peace? When was the USA, or any other country such a state? I would argue the evidence is pretty convincing, never. There are always peoples groups who are marginalized and on the wrong side of the guns. That kingdom can't exist without violence.

I would suggest the entire state is based on systemic injustice. This certainly was true of the Roman government Paul wrote about and it is true of the USA today. And I believe any government you can propose as a historical example. So yes we should speak publicly against it...maybe instead urging people to believe Jesus is President which means a very real way that Trump/Obama is not our president. So we should rightly reject the whole structure of violence.

As for speaking...yes we should do it in social groups. Or more specifically as a citizens of another kingdom. However, it should be said to people who actually hear. Not to "systems" that have no volitional power.

I think what I am critiquing is the notion that we should lecture the kingdoms of this world (which we reject) on how to develop fair and equitable policies. They can't and won't do it. Their whole foundation is wrong. We waste our breath and energy. Once again I think the historical data is pretty clear on this as well as hopefully my philosophical argument.

Thanks for your thoughts...I don't intend to seem like I have all the answers...I also am thinking out loud here to clarify my own thoughts.
God's Kingdom is still not of this world.
Ephesians 2 shows that the devil's kingdom still is of (and over) this world - all the sons of disobedience are subject to the prince of the power of the air.

"The kingdoms of this world" are not only using violence... they are subject to the prince of the power of the air, and are seeking to bring everyone onto the wide path to destruction - with them, all to die. (sooner or later, spiritually and physically?) ...

Money. Money. Money - for all the seeming good from seeming to be okay charities, money is what runs them, controls them, and motivates them. (the worldly ones)... (the governments and agencies thereof) ...

When people are broke, or poor, or want more money, what can they do ? Get money from government. Of course - whether "entitlements" or other - for corporations in the hundreds of millions of dollars, to individuals 300 or 400 per month up to 3000, 4000, and more per month.... a very corrupt system already in place, and with little if any accountability - including for adoptions/ foster care/ in the usa. (a huge , huge, money maker for the various agencies and people involved) .

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"Is there a leavening effect we can have on society that might advance the cause of Christ and keep evil somewhat in check?

Does our failure to address systemic injustice do a disservice to its victims? "
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No. I think, Never have God's people ever been told to have a leavening effect on society, nor is it Scriptural.
I think 'leaven' has always been like the hypocrisy of the religious teachers - and a little hypocrisy 'leavens the whole loaf" (makes it all bad, totally bad) ....

As far as "keep evil somewhat in check", look in Scripture - see how much correction and scourging and training and discipline was (and is ) needed simply to keep "evil in check" in a holy assembly of righteous believers , blameless in Christ Jesus ?
Evil has grown tremendously in this last century , and is growing worse every day. (as written - in line with all Scripture).

"address systemic injustice" ? It is written that because of injustice, people's love has grown cold. People who stand up for the truth today, are ostracized, mocked, beaten, arrested, imprisoned, and yes, even executed. (world wide including in the usa). Over a thousand helpless babies slaughtered daily in the usa. Judgment will be fast and furious when God executes His Wrath soon and with precision on all those who have shed innocent blood since Abel through the Crusades and through today.

Finally - "a disservice to its victims" ? Where if anywhere have you already seen anyone destroying the works of the devil?

Healing the sick ? Teaching the Truth ? (unchanged in 2000 years) ...... known as people who have been with God ? With Jesus One with God... ? In union with the Father and with the Son ?

It is time for anyone who chooses to be a disciple of Jesus, God Willing, to always follow Jesus, everywhere He Goes, no matter what the cost .... (to follow Jesus costs everything)
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joshuabgood
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Re: POLL: Relating to Power: The Christian and Politics

Post by joshuabgood »

When Jesus said his Kingdom was not "of this world" he meant that it didn't operate like the geopolitical nation-states with an ethic of violence. That is, his kingdom isn't worldly. He didn't mean it wasn't a present reality on earth or that he wasn't a literal King.
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