Worldliness

[RZehr]

If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.

Of course, this puts us seekers in a general state of anxiety to try to dress to be accepted by our non-worldly peers, try to learn to talk differently, and overall we get very busy pretending we aren’t “worldly”.

I suppose so. I'll try to remember that. Being born and raised in the Plain conservative Mennonite Church, I don't have a seeker perspective. My initial responses are not geared toward seekers specifically, but rather people as myself.

[Bootstrap]

If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.

Depending on exactly what you mean, I agree. But someone wearing plain clothes can certainly be worldly, and someone wearing typical American clothes can be spiritual, there's a real danger in judging by the outside of the cup.

And there's a real danger in conflating a particular cultural practice with spirituality.

I'm basically neutral when it comes to these kinds of church standards. Church standards should be evaluated against scripture. Paul suggested guidelines of various kinds to the churches. The question is not whether there should be any guidelines not found in the text of scripture, but what kinds of guidelines are helpful. No matter how many or few guidelines, a community that is constantly discerning good from evil by the Holy Spirit is important.

[Bootstrap]

Paul talks about worldly religious practice in Colossians 2:

You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

So there's a danger in creating a bunch of religious practices that prove we are Christians because they require strong devotion and pious self-denial. And sometimes people do seem to be boasting that their practices are stricter and require more self-denial than everyone else's.

Paul tells us not to submit to that kind of thing:

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.

I do think guidelines are important, but it's even more important to remember the core of the Gospel and to be sure that all of our guidelines point us to Christ and the Holy Spirit and holy living. And there's always this danger:

They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.

We can build a culture where we congratulate each other on how religious we are. But that's not really what the Kingdom is about. And it doesn't lead to the spiritual maturity that comes from constant discernment.

[Sudsy]

Paul talks about worldly religious practice in Colossians 2:

You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

So there's a danger in creating a bunch of religious practices that prove we are Christians because they require strong devotion and pious self-denial. And sometimes people do seem to be boasting that their practices are stricter and require more self-denial than everyone else's.

Paul tells us not to submit to that kind of thing:

So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.

I do think guidelines are important, but it's even more important to remember the core of the Gospel and to be sure that all of our guidelines point us to Christ and the Holy Spirit and holy living. And there's always this danger:

They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.

We can build a culture where we congratulate each other on how religious we are. But that's not really what the Kingdom is about. And it doesn't lead to the spiritual maturity that comes from constant discernment.

Good texts to consider. Thankyou !

Regarding the first text- it makes me wonder when it says don't copy the world's ways of saying don't do this and don't do that when that is exactly what l was raised in. Was the purpose for me to 'learn obedience' and this would make me a better Christian or was group distinction more at play and the driver was pride in this group than anything else. The separating from the world was important but also separation from other groups of Christians that were not Pentecostal. We had the 'full Gospel' and anything else was below or not as spiritual as we. I get this feeling often from various more conservative groups. And this text says that this approach, if it is intended to help one grow spiritually, will 'provide no help in conquering a person's evil desires'. So, if it doesn't do that, then is the focus and approach to spiritual growth missing how growth occurs ?

For example, Paul writes that women should not wear certain things and this is used as a 'dont do'. However, in context I think Paul is making the point that a godly woman should not be known for her outward adornments but rather for her godly spirit and good deeds. The focus then is not so much on the 'do nots' as it is on the 'do'. Likewise what follows on the men that it isn't to pray everywhere with hands lifted but rather pray without anger and disputes in their heads. Although a godly woman should dress modestly and not attempt to draw attraction to her body and men do not need to always pray with hands lifted but can, the emphasis is often put on the 'do not' than it is on the 'do' or 'be'.

I remember the many rules I was raised to follow regarding how a Christian act and it was heavy on the 'do nots'. As Paul says, it did not change my fleshly desire to do some of them. I couldn't wait for my next opportunity to watch TV and when it came I was glued to the box. Later I learned about this battle with the flesh and what the tools are to deal with it. I now know the tools but still lose the battle many times. As Paul also said, the things I want to do in my spirit have an enemy still a part of me and if I don't 'put it off', it will win.

Whoops, got to go but would be glad to talk more on this later and those other texts that Boot provided.

[Wade]

I think of worldliness as the state of society in which its collective values and workings are governed by the effect of the flesh at work in its individual members - ie, when they are governed by their individual needs and desires as described in I John 2:15,16.

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

When we walk according to the flesh, we naturally tend toward worldliness and so we are drawn toward worldly entertainment and practices, because they serve the flesh. When people chase after power, money or status in any form, that is another form of worldliness, because the flesh also wants those things. And how much is society shaped by these pursuits - even among Christians! When church leaders engage in political machinations to bring through certain agendas, that also is a form of worldliness and the world has entered the church.

For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? I Corinthians 3:3,4

The collective effect of people walking by the flesh as described in Galatians 5:16-25 and James 3:14-16 is a poisoned social order. But to the extent that believers walk by the Spirit, society is preserved. I believe it is in this way that we are called to be salt in the earth.

I agree with this.

Worldliness makes me think of focus on self.
I believe a transformed mind will want to know the heart and will of God in all things while living it rather than how much and/or how little I have to know and/or do.

Pious actions don't make a person pious but a pious person will have pious actions.

[RZehr]

If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.

Depending on exactly what you mean, I agree. But someone wearing plain clothes can certainly be worldly, and someone wearing typical American clothes can be spiritual, there's a real danger in judging by the outside of the cup.

And there's a real danger in conflating a particular cultural practice with spirituality.

I'm basically neutral when it comes to these kinds of church standards. Church standards should be evaluated against scripture. Paul suggested guidelines of various kinds to the churches. The question is not whether there should be any guidelines not found in the text of scripture, but what kinds of guidelines are helpful. No matter how many or few guidelines, a community that is constantly discerning good from evil by the Holy Spirit is important.

Sure, that wasn't meant to be a confining description of worldliness but I do believe it is a far edge delineation worldliness.

[MaxPC]

If someone looks like the world, walks like the world, and talks like the world, I'm going to think they are worldly.

Of course, this puts us seekers in a general state of anxiety to try to dress to be accepted by our non-worldly peers, try to learn to talk differently, and overall we get very busy pretending we aren’t “worldly”.

But do you have a "renewed, transformed mind"? That is really the only legitimate starting point for overcoming "worldliness".

I couldn't have said it better.

[Bootstrap]

Depending on exactly what you mean, I agree.

!!! SNIP !!!

I'm basically neutral when it comes to these kinds of church standards. Church standards should be evaluated against scripture. Paul suggested guidelines of various kinds to the churches. The question is not whether there should be any guidelines not found in the text of scripture, but what kinds of guidelines are helpful. No matter how many or few guidelines, a community that is constantly discerning good from evil by the Holy Spirit is important.

Sure, that wasn't meant to be a confining description of worldliness but I do believe it is a far edge delineation worldliness.

Exactly.

Church standards should not be an end in themselves.

[Hats Off]

Without a transformed mind, conforming to church standards isn't much better than (or even much different from) conforming to the world.

I would suggest its even worse, partly due its inherent dishonesty, and partly due to its effects.

Our heart must be in conforming to our church standards and then they can be a benefit to those who are in the early stages of learning who may not yet have a conscience against worldliness. I would not want a church without standards even though some may conform only out of obedience. Hopefully that obedience will lead to transformation.

[Sudsy]

Without a transformed mind, conforming to church standards isn't much better than (or even much different from) conforming to the world.

I would suggest its even worse, partly due its inherent dishonesty, and partly due to its effects.

Our heart must be in conforming to our church standards and then they can be a benefit to those who are in the early stages of learning who may not yet have a conscience against worldliness. I would not want a church without standards even though some may conform only out of obedience. Hopefully that obedience will lead to transformation.

I believe when we are transformed in Christ in the renewing of our minds, we love to do what you ought to do, that’s freedom. To obey out of duty hoping to lead to transformation, seems to me to be trusting in laws to bring about a transformed mind. I remember when some of the 'church standards' were relaxed in my youth on certain areas and some immediately took advantage of this 'new freedom' as it was in areas they had felt restricted and did not love to do. Later on, for some believers, this was a spiritual growth experience as they found some of this new freedom was not helping but hindering their relationship with God and these then became things they could easily give up. For others who became more worldly, it was probably considered by others that they had headed down a 'slippery slope' but perhaps this was a lack of God transformation in their minds in the first place.