War in Gaza

[Ernie]

If IDF can release tens of thousands of booklets by air telling Gazans where to move next, couldn't they have done the same thing every week since the war started, asking/ordering Gazans to put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages now rather than later? And also send messages to their phones every day or even twice a day? If they did it twice a day for the last six months, that would be 365 text messages letting the Gazan's know how serious this matter is.

I see that they did one air drop in January, but I don't know that this is pressuring Hamas.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/2 ... s-continue

[Valerie]

I haven't spent time in this topic.

Tonight I sat down to read Zephaniah. It's been awhile.
Chapter 2 caught my eye, I don't know- this is a prophetic book. Not sure then the mention of Gaza in Chapter 2 is meant to be.

[Szdfan]

If IDF can release tens of thousands of booklets by air telling Gazans where to move next, couldn't they have done the same thing every week since the war started, asking/ordering Gazans to put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages now rather than later? And also send messages to their phones every day or even twice a day? If they did it twice a day for the last six months, that would be 365 text messages letting the Gazan's know how serious this matter is.

I think the Gazans are very aware of how serious this is but --

1) How much pressure can ordinary Gazans put on Hamas?
2) If human rights reports over the past 15-20 years are believed, many Gazans already felt hatred and resentment towards Israel because of their oppressive and dehumanizing policies. Before the war, Gaza was sometimes called the "world's largest open-air prison. The brutality of IDF's military actions confirm what a lot of Gazans already probably believed about Israel.

[temporal1]

I think the Gazans are very aware of how serious this is but --

1) How much pressure can ordinary Gazans put on Hamas?
2) If human rights reports over the past 15-20 years are believed, many Gazans already felt hatred and resentment towards Israel because of their oppressive and dehumanizing policies. Before the war, Gaza was sometimes called the "world's largest open-air prison. The brutality of IDF's military actions confirm what a lot of Gazans already probably believed about Israel.

These are critical questions.
People who are held hostage and propagandized have little practical choice, if any.

Certainly, Israel has their view of claims made in #2. Do they have opportunity to represent their side?
i’ve heard some of it, it’s compelling.

This is the same principle many question in current U.S. public schools, which are so weighted toward lib sensibilities, what hope is there for balanced education?

[Ernie]

Why doesn't Israel open up more border crossings for aid into the country?

Feel free to distinguish between stated reasons and real reasons.

[Ken]

Why doesn't Israel open up more border crossings for aid into the country?

Feel free to distinguish between stated reasons and real reasons.

I don't think the number of crossings is the issue. The issue is the volume you accommodate at any one crossing. A single border crossing operating 24/7 could easily accommodate all the need.

I looked it up and there are only 7 border crossings into Gaza on its entire perimeter. 6 of those are through Israel and only one (Rafah) is from Egypt. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022 ... gs-of-gaza

Before 10/7 Israel only had 2 of the 6 crossings from Israel into Gaza open. The rest had been long closed. But the point is that there is only one border crossing that doesn't pass through Israel and that is Rafah. So any aid coming from any country other than Israel would have to go through Rafah. Or else enter Israel first and then come in via Israel. And I suspect Israel isn't going to let convoys of trucks from Arab countries transit Israel.

Why don't they make more? Well, a crossing is more than just punching a hole in the wall. they would have to build highways up to that new crossing on each side which would be a major construction project lasting months. What point is a land crossing that doesn't connect to any major highways on either side?

None of this is an infrastructure problem (number of crossings or ports). It is entirely a political problem and the solution lies in politics not engineering.

[Ernie]

Why doesn't Israel open up more border crossings for aid into the country?

Feel free to distinguish between stated reasons and real reasons.

I don't think the number of crossings is the issue. The issue is the volume you accommodate at any one crossing. A single border crossing operating 24/7 could easily accommodate all the need.

I looked it up and there are only 7 border crossings into Gaza on its entire perimeter. 6 of those are through Israel and only one (Rafah) is from Egypt. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022 ... gs-of-gaza

Before 10/7 Israel only had 2 of the 6 crossings from Israel into Gaza open. The rest had been long closed. But the point is that there is only one border crossing that doesn't pass through Israel and that is Rafah. So any aid coming from any country other than Israel would have to go through Rafah. Or else enter Israel first and then come in via Israel. And I suspect Israel isn't going to let convoys of trucks from Arab countries transit Israel.

Why don't they make more? Well, a crossing is more than just punching a hole in the wall. they would have to build highways up to that new crossing on each side which would be a major construction project lasting months. What point is a land crossing that doesn't connect to any major highways on either side?

None of this is an infrastructure problem (number of crossings or ports). It is entirely a political problem and the solution lies in politics not engineering.

There are roads to some of the closed crossings. So no need to spend ink on that.
And there are non-Arab allies who would be glad to send aid through Israel to a border crossing. So that is not a problem.
There are security issues getting aid trucks from Rafah to northern Gaza, so that is indeed a problem.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ivery.html

A political problem? I'm sure that is part of it. Feel free to explain the political issues at work.

Does Israel not have the manpower to staff another crossing or two in the north while fighting a war?

I think we can safely conclude that the powers that be don't really care if many people in Gaza are sick and starving or they would do something about it.
But do the powers that be want to keep them hungry and sick to put pressure on Hamas to surrender or hand over the hostages?

[Ken]

Why doesn't Israel open up more border crossings for aid into the country?

Feel free to distinguish between stated reasons and real reasons.

I don't think the number of crossings is the issue. The issue is the volume you accommodate at any one crossing. A single border crossing operating 24/7 could easily accommodate all the need.

I looked it up and there are only 7 border crossings into Gaza on its entire perimeter. 6 of those are through Israel and only one (Rafah) is from Egypt. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022 ... gs-of-gaza

Before 10/7 Israel only had 2 of the 6 crossings from Israel into Gaza open. The rest had been long closed. But the point is that there is only one border crossing that doesn't pass through Israel and that is Rafah. So any aid coming from any country other than Israel would have to go through Rafah. Or else enter Israel first and then come in via Israel. And I suspect Israel isn't going to let convoys of trucks from Arab countries transit Israel.

Why don't they make more? Well, a crossing is more than just punching a hole in the wall. they would have to build highways up to that new crossing on each side which would be a major construction project lasting months. What point is a land crossing that doesn't connect to any major highways on either side?

None of this is an infrastructure problem (number of crossings or ports). It is entirely a political problem and the solution lies in politics not engineering.

There are roads to some of the closed crossings. So no need to spend ink on that.
And there are non-Arab allies who would be glad to send aid through Israel to a border crossing. So that is not a problem.
There are security issues getting aid trucks from Rafah to northern Gaza, so that is indeed a problem.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ivery.html

A political problem? I'm sure that is part of it. Feel free to explain the political issues at work.

Does Israel not have the manpower to staff another crossing or two in the north while fighting a war?

I think we can safely conclude that the powers that be don't really care if many people in Gaza are sick and starving or they would do something about it.
But do the powers that be want to keep them hungry and sick to put pressure on Hamas to surrender or hand over the hostages?

All those closed crossings are through Israel. So even if it is Canada or Germany sending aid, it is mostly likely being transported on Egyptian trucks using Egyptian drivers. Or possibly Saudi trucks using Saudi drivers. I would guess that ports in Egypt and the Gulf Coast of Saudi Arabia would be the most efficient way to get goods into Gaza from Europe or North America. Maybe also Lebanon but then you'd have Lebanese drivers (Hezbollah) and that would be a non-starter with Israel.

Logically if you were shipping relief supplies from Europe or North America you'd offload them at Port Said in Egypt at the mouth of the Suez Canal and from there it is only about a 4 hour drive on a major highway to Rafah. But obviously you'd have to use Egyptian trucks and drivers.

When I say political, I mean politics in Israel. Netanyahu could order the border crossings wide open and make that happen within hours. The reason he isn't is politics.

And I don't think we can safely conclude anything at this point. And who are you referring to by "powers that be". The most recent ceasefire proposal out of the UN was rejected by Hamas not Israel. Because they were unwilling to release hostages in exchange for ceasefire. And just yesterday the ceasefire proposal by the US through the coalition of Gulf States that are directly involved in negotiations was vetoed by Russia and China. Because they objected to any condemnation of Hamas.

[Ernie]

All those closed crossings are through Israel. So even if it is Canada or Germany sending aid, it is mostly likely being transported on Egyptian trucks using Egyptian drivers. Or possibly Saudi trucks using Saudi drivers. I would guess that ports in Egypt and the Gulf Coast of Saudi Arabia would be the most efficient way to get goods into Gaza from Europe or North America. Maybe also Lebanon but then you'd have Lebanese drivers (Hezbollah) and that would be a non-starter with Israel.

Logically if you were shipping relief supplies from Europe or North America you'd offload them at Port Said in Egypt at the mouth of the Suez Canal and from there it is only about a 4 hour drive on a major highway to Rafah. But obviously you'd have to use Egyptian trucks and drivers.

When I say political, I mean politics in Israel. Netanyahu could order the border crossings wide open and make that happen within hours. The reason he isn't is politics.

And I don't think we can safely conclude anything at this point. And who are you referring to by "powers that be". The most recent ceasefire proposal out of the UN was rejected by Hamas not Israel. Because they were unwilling to release hostages in exchange for ceasefire. And just yesterday the ceasefire proposal by the US through the coalition of Gulf States that are directly involved in negotiations was vetoed by Russia and China. Because they objected to any condemnation of Hamas.

The USA and other allies could easily unload aid at any one of Israel's 6 ports and it could be delivered to one or more of the closed border crossings in Gaza. I'm wondering why Netanyahu and company (the powers that be) don't open up these crossings?
Just because Hamas won't agree to the terms for hostage release doesn't mean that those not supporting Hamas should go without water, food, and healthcare.

[temporal1]

The USA and other allies could easily unload aid at any one of Israel's 6 ports and it could be delivered to one or more of the closed border crossings in Gaza. I'm wondering why Netanyahu and company (the powers that be) don't open up these crossings?

Just because Hamas won't agree to the terms for hostage release
doesn't mean that those not supporting Hamas should go without water, food, and healthcare.

you seem confident aid could+would reach intended populations.
this is a worldwide problem, even outside hot wars. i have to believe, if it were possible, it would be done.

Honduras Keiser has described how bad it is, even in Honduras.

- - - - - - -

i would hope this would be a productive move:

“Speaker Johnson to invite Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu to address Congress”
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/21/12398812 ... -netanyahu